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Hi Scott,
I can only say that the tag is different from the ones I have seen and had in my hands.
They were dug-up , in a bad shape, and parts of it were missing.
To the tag you have your question about:
It looks like the numbers and the unit name aren't stamped at the same time.
It looks like it was a tag with only the numbers on it.
Also the stamper that is used for the unit is done with one stamper with the whole name on it, in a letter - type and size I haven't seen before.
Dogtags to this unit are very rare.......no one wanted to be caught with such a tag around his neck at the end of the war.
The ones on the market (the few) are all dug-up tags.
Maybe other members can shine their light on it (as I can be wrong too), but I do not have a fine feeling about the tag.
yours
Eric-Jan -
Hi Scott,
This example shares the odd characteristics of the one shown in Jean Höidal's book, although I have no independent confirmation that these are indeed authentic. The type is unlike any other Erkennungsmarke in that the holes are very crudely punched, there are only two Trennschlitzen, and the name SS-DIRLEWANGER appears to have been hand-stamped with a single stamp (usually done by a press). I was told once that these discs were found in a cache, however again I know of no undisputable proof that they're real. That being the case, I'd avoid them- especially at 275 Euros- unless someone can 100% prove its authenticity.
MattComment
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Hi Scott,
I've just looked back and found the thread discussing these Dirlewanger discs- fellow Forum member 'alex.pionier' claims in post #28 to know the guy who found the discs- the one Weitze has might even be from that find. Here's the thread: http://www.wehrmacht-awards.net/foru...ht=dirlewanger
Now just because someone honestly dug a disc up doesn't necessarily mean it's authentic; I've heard stories from a reliable source that this is a way fakers gain 'provenance' for their junk- bury a few where you know people will be looking, and since they're trustworthy, the junk becomes accepted and the fakers can sell at will citing the 'find' as proof the stuff is authentic. This kind of tactic is reportedly used in all forms of forgery from documents to art masterpieces. It's one reason that it's not sufficient to simply trust the source- the item must hold up its end. I have no reason to doubt Alex's word that his friend found the discs honestly, however their characteristics raise too many flags for me to accept them without more proof- one coming from the estate of a veteran who actually wore it during the war would be pretty-much it. An SS-Soldbuch with these markings noted on the 'Erkennungsmarke' line would be pretty-good too, but not necessarily sufficient.
So, for me anyway, these SS-Dirlewanger discs remain a question mark, and as such I'd never buy one myself and could therefore never recommend anything other than people pass on them until such time as more proof is found.
Your observation about the short life of the unit is one of the issues I have- the soldiers who made up the unit weren't likely all brand-new recruits, and unless they had just been transferred to the SS, would have continued to wear their old Erkennungsmarken. I also don't see why the Stammrollennummern on the discs are so high- the vast, vast majority of Heer and Luftwaffe discs, even those from basic Infanterie units, which should have had more men than most others, have numbers nowhere near this high. I'd like to know if SS-Dirlewanger ever even had as many as 6000 men. The crudity of the disc is the other major sticking point for me- I see no reason for the use of anything buy regular-form discs, and yet these ones appear to use hand cut blanks, the holes seem to have been added by hand in a VERY haphazard manner, and the Trennschlitzen are just stamped lines- not even perforations. Why? I have no explanation for this.
Copies of Jean Höidal's book is usually for sale on www.militariaweb.com or possibly directly from the publisher http://www.patzwall.de/ - although I can't seem to find them in either place. You could also contact the owner of the website www.emarken.de - he's a friend of Höidal's and might be able to help. In the section marked 'Das Buch' he mentions the details, but doesn't have links or anything.
MattLast edited by Matt L; 05-28-2005, 12:30 PM.Comment
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Matt , its possible the numbers were that high. In 1944 Himmler gave a speech bragging about how he formed the unit in 1941 with 2000 poachers, so by the end of the war those high numbers could very well be...BUT,,,,
There are some who swear by those tags and some that swear at them. I do not like them. If anything members of the unit would have their original training / replacement tags OR a replacement tag from their last unit.
The unit nomaclature is not correct!. A special die for the tag? a large, hard to use one piece stamp? Stories but never any real provenance... These tags just have too many problems to be considered authentic..,G.Comment
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Hi,
All I can add is just that I also have a tag like the one shown. The Stammrolle is 997. As far as I know it comes from Germany. Next thing is that I had several of these found in Poland ( including one that I have found myself in POW camp in Sagan where German POWs (from Sachsen and southern Brandenburg front sector) were kept. However these were in much worse condition to the one I have finally decided to keep in my collection. All were made in the same way and same material - thin zinc sheet with 2 cuts instead of 3 slits in the middle and this rough stamping. One of the tags coming from POW camp in Bankau/Kreutzburg ( Niederschlesien) was made of aluminium.
Hope this helps
Al.Comment
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And one more thing I have just remembered.
One of the tags I had was coming from place south of Kustrin/Kostrzyn Poland found hidden together with a number of golden teeth. These guys weren't the type of mythical heroic wariors....
AlComment
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