The Two S&L Dies for RK's

[Brian S]

Tony, dear gawwwd, it's THEORETICAL that it applies HERE.

...and read ALL the posts, not just the last few words to save time. If you do, you'll see that I have no problem that the majority of you VOTE in favor of 100 dies. Makes my SINGLE 'B' Type much more valuable. So have at it... But please read all and not just a few lines Tony, that's really exasperating.

And, you'll note your NO NO NO to my RIDICULOUS idea that the 935 requires much less pressure is indeed correct.

So, if you want to stay friendly, which I do, please do not tell me NO NO NO, state your opinion, back it up with whatever facts you have and let's see who can add value to both our positions. In this case you were found to be entirely short of the mark.

[khstover]

really rusty engineering knowledge

Dietrich has more recent knowledge than I do on materials engineering, mine is from school 10 years ago and unused since.

My understanding is that metals will wear out over time, and that the more force you apply to something at any one time the faster it will wear out. So, if I can get 100 good strikes out of a die at one pressure, then double the pressure, I can expect to get less than 100 good strikes, but I'll still get some good ones. This assumes that the pressures used are high enough that the die is sensitive to the process of being used at either pressure, but doesn't break when the pressure is upped.

Looking at the crosses, the die used for type A wore using the 800 grade of silver. The type B die also shows wear in the 57 issues, but not in 935-4. So, isn't it logical to suppose a switch to 935 to prolong the life of a die, either repaired or replaced?

Regarding silver and expense, its pretty cheap stuff. 800 to 935 is a 17% jump, but the amount of silver in the cross would be fairly small. What does a frame weigh by itself? That would give us some sense of the cost jump.

So, since I am out on a limb already, let me saw it off with a proposed timeline similar to Dietrich's article. The original production is the A -type, unflawed 800. Over time, the die developed problems, giving the A -type, flawed 800. This die gives way to the B -type, unflawed 935-4. Then someone gets the idea once standards are relaxed to do 800-4 or they figure out how to do 800 without damaging the die(or not many are struck), then to neusilber for the 57 models. As they beat the die to death with the much stronger neusilber, the die gets worse and worse. Couldn't they even be using the same die to stamp out frames for the 57 awards and the 39 crosses with the nonmagnetic cores?

Thanks for reading my ramble! Please help with my dusty knowledge of materials.

[Dietrich Maerz]

You are absolutely rigth with the wear factor. Wear occurs everytime, due to stress (pressure), friction and all other known factors. Nothing last's forever.

Do we actually know that S&L used a 'motor-driven" hydraulic die press? One that could be set to (for the sake of talking, not sarcastic) to 27% less pressure and then 65% more pressure? Via a dial that controls the hydraulic cylinder or the stroke of the press?

All I know at this point in time is this picture of a manual die press used during the production of the 1914 crosses. And, by the way, this type of manual spindle press is still in very wide range of use and can produce 'huge' pressure.

I certainly don't know what S&L had, but I know what was used once and if this machine was used, the 27%, 65% 935-4 silver=less stress is not valid. This machine went to a dead stop, set when the tool was adjusted. That was all that was and is required.

One can find this picture in Bowens book as well as in Geissler's. The description reads " Pressing the silver rims"

Dietrich

[Tiger 1]

Brian,

You make me laugh.

How do you know that I haven't read all the posts in their entirety? Yet you chastise me for not doing so. Huh? Really faulty charactor judgement.

The questions that I posed to you have been largely unanswered or even addressed. What am I to make of that? Slippery debating comes to mind.

Anyway, lets stay friends as this is a hobby, just don't suppose what I do or don't do. You're not that good a mind reader.

I didn't see where the difference in die pressure between annealed or dead soft 800 and 935 silver was. I would bet that annealing both would reduce the 27% difference. Either way while 27% sounds like a substancial difference what would it actually be in pounds of pressure required? For instance if the 800 silver needs 100 ft.lbs of pressure to fill out the die and the 935 silver takes 73 foot pounds the ACTUAL difference when compared to the strength of the steel die would be negligable.

Tony

[Brian S]

Tony, but you don't know it is insignificant, now do you... 100 pounds of pressure... My 11 year old's weight won't die press an RK...... Bad example Tony by suggesting a far out number like that. 100 is hardly a reasonable number. And I haven't a clue what you're talking about in unanswered questions. Not that I'd answer questions that evidence doesn't exist to work from. But if you'd like to place them in a post one by one I'm sure Dave and I and khstover could try.

Dietrich, isn't it likely processes changed from 1914 to 1939, 25 years!!! Then add another 5 to 1944 and it's 30 years... These were Germans Dietrich...

Well Dave, we must have some credibility here as khstover agrees with the logic and the evidence.

[Dietrich Maerz]

I think it's time for all the people who do not, cannot or will not read thru this thread, that I post my opinion again, like I did with post No.1 in starting this thread. And explain something.

This is post no. 1:

1. S&L had two dies during the war A-Type and B-Type
2. The A-Type is the early one for mainly 3 o'clock flawless and flawed "800"
3. The B-Type was introduced with the 935-4 cross (very) late in the war
4. The B-Type die was used for the 57 crosses also
5. S&L produced "swastika" crosses on the B-Type well after 1957

This is how I like to word it after 484 posts....

1. S&L had two die (TYPES) during the war, A-Type and B-Type
2. The A-Type is the early one for mainly 3 o'clock flawless and flawed "800"
3. The B-Type was introduced with the 935-4 cross (very) late in the war
4. The B-Type die was used for the 57 crosses also
5. S&L produced "swastika" crosses on the B-Type well after 1957

That's actually all. In addition, I like to point out for my position, that:

- I always said "Thesis" and "Findings", not prooven facts...
- I would still call it a 'dent row', since there are dents in the B-Type crosses
- I suggested a time line which I called "neither proven nor gospel"
- I never mentioned 3 or more dies (or die types)
- I never ventured into any explanation of the dent row. I just observed it.
- I never ventured into any 'die duplication' nor other issues related to the die
- I never called any model, not even the heavily flawed B-Type, postwar.
- I raised however certain suspicions regarding certain models

For me it is absolutely inconsequential whether there were two dies or one repaired die. I could only identify two cross types, A and B, and have no evidence for neither more types, nor more dies, nor further repairs on one die.

Dietrich

[Dietrich Maerz]

Dietrich, isn't it likely processes changed from 1914 to 1939, 25 years!!! Then add another 5 to 1944 and it's 30 years... These were Germans Dietrich...

Well Dave, we must have some credibility here as khstover agrees with the logic and the evidence.

Brian,

- yes, could very well be. But could also be that not. I certainly don't know!

- I don's see where khstover agreed with you nor do I see that anybody has answered the 800-4 and 800 B-Type "pressure question". But I do see this as not important anyway.

Dietrich

[Brian S]

I said "likely". I haven't said "I know for certain" because I don't. And I don't expect to change many minds here. This is not an impartial crowd. Statements of 'fact' seem predicated on ownership of RKs. Not just RKs, seen it with Spanish Crosses, etc. etc. etc.

Thank you. And thank you for your update. It's been the assertion of two dies from post #1 that has fueled the debate.

[Dietrich Maerz]

Brian,

I surely did not want to imply that you know. We both don't know, that much we do know.

And for me there is no difference between two dies and two die types. I still don't know about the repaired die or two dies.

The 'mind changing' thing is of course a touchy subject. I had a discussion today with an owner of a B-Type, non-magnetic, unmarked frame, no other flaws then the dent row. He does not believe in the flaws and the dent row and is absolutely convinced his cross is pre-45. And you know what? This is absolutely fine with me. If he's happy, that's all that counts. It surely is an S&L.

Dietrich

[Dave Kane]

....deleted as I thought we had a meeting of the minds!

[Tiger 1]

Brian
................................
I didn't see where the difference in die pressure between annealed or dead soft 800 and 935 silver was. I would bet that annealing both would reduce the 27% difference. Either way while 27% sounds like a substancial difference what would it actually be in pounds of pressure required? For instance if the 800 silver needs 100 ft.lbs of pressure to fill out the die and the 935 silver takes 73 foot pounds the ACTUAL difference when compared to the strength of the steel die would be negligable.

Tony

Brian,



My dear fellow.

I used the arbitrary weight of 100 pounds as an easy number to deal with when trying to illustrate a 27% diffrence in pressure suggested above. I'm sure that that isn't the pressure required also. I was thinking that you would easily see that just as an example. That's why I prefaced it by saying "For instance if..."

I'm beginning to believe that you are the one that doesn't read the whole thread or has trouble understanding what is clearly written. If my writting confuses you please forgive me. English is my second language.

The questions that I asked are certainly in the previous threads. I think that you can find them just fine.

All the best,

Tony

[Dietrich Maerz]

Dave,

don't read something into my post that I did not say! I neither said two dies nor did I say one repaired die! I said two die types!!

But I will say this: I did not really ponder/examine/question the two die evidence in depth because I did concentrate on the crosses, not the dies. For me the important thing are the crosses, not the dies.

At this point in time it is only important (for me at least, not for you guys and I don't know why) to agree on the A and B-Type crosses, no on any one or more stupid die(s).

Dietrich

[Dave Kane]

Dietrich I guess I did....also you know the danger in insisting on 2 die as we already discussed just that!


I will delete my prior post and continue on

[Tiger 1]

Brian,

I forgot something.

If you really think 100 pounds is inconsequential try this.

Clamp one arm of your KC to a stout table so at least half of it overhangs the edge. Next have your eleven year old stand on the end that over hangs.

Once you're done with that easy to do at home practical experiment, tell me that 100 pounds pressure is not enough. I would bet that the 100 pounds of pressure applied to that small area will indeed affect the silver frame and the much tougher iron core also.

Best retards,

Tony

[Dietrich Maerz]

Dietrich I guess I did....also you know the danger in insisting on 2 die as we already discussed just that!
I will delete my prior post and continue on

No, you don't! I'm not insisting on two dies nor do I insist on one repaired die! I say it again and again and again: For me it is inconsequential!

I only insist on A and B Type crosses! And that A came after B!

Dietrich