PKZ Markings of DKs

[LtSteiner]

Dear all

Based on the timeline of the issue of the order and the introduction of the PKZ numbers, it is commonly assumed that the marked DKs are later productions than the non marked.
Is that true for all cases? Do you know late DKs, awarded, produced, or bought (44/45) that are not marked?
Any information would be of interest to me.

Regards Steiner

[Dietrich Maerz]

The problemis that one will never know the time difference between manufacture and award date. It is clear that after late 42/early 43 no German Cross (or any other medal handled by the Präsidialkanzlei) was delivered to Dr. Doehle without the marking. But how many unmarked did he still have and how many were awarded after that date?
In my earlier days of reserach I made the mistake to base the introduction of the PKZ numbers on award dates, such like other also did. That gave a date for the RK of mid 1944, which is clearly wrong.
So, it is absolutely possible that an unmarked DK is awarded or bought as replacement in 1944/45. It is, however, not possible, that unmarked crosses were manufactured after end of 42/early 43. Just as it is not possible, that a marked piece was awarded before that time, something a famous dealer got wrong several times when completing groups.

The PKZ evidently did not work on "first in-first out" principle.

[Leroy]

To complicate matters (at least for RK's), you sometimes see S&L loops marked with the silver content and the incused '4' (and, of course, those from K&Q with silver content and '65'). Did they use the loops as "bridges" on already manufactured crosses, not PKZ marked on the frame itself?

[LtSteiner]

Thanks for your feedback and input.


So, every DK produced after early 43, no matter whether it was delivered to the PK or for private sale, was marked. I guess this holds true for all RKs as well produced after that time. There are no exceptions known?

[Dietrich Maerz]

There was np private purchase of the Knights Cross or the German Cross after October 1941. Everything had to be bought from the Präsidialkanzlei directly.

[Calvin Hall]

There was np private purchase of the Knights Cross or the German Cross after October 1941. Everything had to be bought from the Präsidialkanzlei directly.

Hi Dietrich-

Is that also true for cloth German Crosses?

[Leroy]

May, 1942

[Dietrich Maerz]

Hi Dietrich-

Is that also true for cloth German Crosses?

The private sale was not allowed and the cloth version could be acquired from the Supreme Command of the Army (OKH).

[Leroy]

If the LDO pricelist below was "Issue II", published in May, 1942, why is the DK still in it?

[Dietrich Maerz]

How would I know that?
I can only go by what the official announcement said and how it is testified by the multiple requests and invoices which I partially showed in my book.
The only thing I could thought of is that the printer didn't get the message. He also didn't get the message that there were not two grades (Stufe I and II), but two classes (Ausführungen).
Being on the list still does not necessarily mean that you could actually buy one. This is also substantiated by the fact that only one supplier had an LDO-marked cross and that one is extremely rare.
There might have very well been a time frame between the institution and this list when there was a gray area. We also know that not everything written was followed by the letter instantly.

I should have written " There was no private sales allowed after October 1941." since I can not vouch personally for every shop in the Greater German Reich.

[Leroy]

D - When do the PKZ lists you have first show a sale from the PKZ (not a replacement for a piece lost in combat)?

[Dietrich Maerz]

The lists I have are only from 1944.

[Leroy]

I had little hope that there would be anything before that, not to mention that by the timeframe of this LDO preisliste, not a large number of DK would be "out there".

[Dietrich Maerz]

As I show in my book, per October 1944 5,217 German Crosses were sent out as replacements and bought items. I can't tell from the files, however, how many are free replacments and how many are bought. Nevertheless, it is a subtantial number (averaging nearly 145 crosses per month since the institution).

[Leroy]

The enamel on those pieces can be so prone to damage that I am not surprised.