another Juncker for preview

[Buuzert]

Hello Guys,

Here another Juncker cross. I can't determine excactly which type it is.

For now I know:

- no tear drop 9
- magnetic
- crunch bead > juncker core
- maybe W&L core ?? im not sure about that, imo it doenst match perfectly.
- dimensions 43,90 x 44.05

Hopefully the pictures with reveal the story ....

[Buuzert]

rev

[boch_62]

Yes, nice "full Juncker"

Regards
Jarek

[Buuzert]

Hello Jarek,

Thanks for your fast reply.
Are you sure its a full Juncker?

Imo it isnt a full Juncker, no tear drop 9 if im correct.

[Douglas 5]

I would also say not a tear drop 9 core ... but a W&L core .

Douglas

[Buuzert]

How many W&L cores we can find ?

When I compare the Juncker with a W&L (mm100) it doesnt match 100%

[Douglas 5]

We have 3 main core types and 1 larger date core type ... in all 4 .

Douglas

[Buuzert]

Thank you Douglas,

All those 4 types can be found on a Juncker framed cross ?

So if Im not mistaken its the W&L 3rd core on my Junkcer cross.

[Dietrich Maerz]

I don't want to comment on the cores (yet). I only want to state the following:

There were about 50-60 makers of the EK2 and about 5-6 million EK2 were produced, give or take 0.5 million. W&L was most likely one of the more prominent makers of the EK2. It would be reasonable to assume that they had a share of 1/50 at least, most likely more. 1/50 would be 110,000, 1/30 would be 183,000 crosses produced.

How many W&L has the collector community seen? How many were investigated for the determination of core types? 20? 50? 500? 1000? Even 1,000 would represent only 0.9%. I would think that the actual percentage is more in the area of 0.1%.

Now, if 0.1 % (or even 1%) results in three core types, how many might really have been in use for the total number? 300? And how great is the chance to identify three core types out of a sample of 0.1% or even 1%? Just saying ...

With my background in mathematics and statistics I have a problem with the numbers and ask myself whether there are other factors in play, such as paint thickness, stamping force, steel hardness, photo variations, shadows, wishful thinking, ...

Another thing that makes me think is the long use of a frame die in contrast to the alledged use of several core types over the life time of only one such frame die. With the frame die aging, flaws, and such are accepted as alterations in appearance. With the core - at least it seems to me - the first approach is a new type. It is not a big strech to produce 200,000 EK2 cores on one well made, well maintained, and well aligned die. The literature speaks of tool life in the area of 750,000 cycles.

Again, just saying ....

(I am not disputing the existence of different dies with certain makers. There are clearly different dies! But they are clearly different and easily recognizeable!)

[boch_62]

I fully agree with Dietrich.

IMO in many cases (especially the "S & L design" crosses, but W&L and Juncker's too), the experience decides about the recognition, not the comparison pictures with the millimeter calculations of differences. It my opinion.

Hello Jarek,

Thanks for your fast reply.
Are you sure its a full Juncker?

Imo it isnt a full Juncker, no tear drop 9 if im correct.

Maybe you're right, though a "drop of tears" often "wiped" on the core and was not clearly visible later.

To compare the core of the cross signed L / 12 with a well-visible "drop of tears". If these are different cores, I made a mistake.

Regards
Jarek

[sanya13]

IMO this the type a good Juncker with W&L core

[Douglas 5]

Yes Jarek - 2 different cores they are .

Douglas

[Buuzert]

Thanks you Guys for all your replys

Nice to know its a good Cross with a Junkcer frame and a W&L core

[Yubari]

How many W&L cores we can find ?

When I compare the Juncker with a W&L (mm100) it doesnt match 100%

Eric, why do you think they are not same? It seems only black paint is different, hence slightly making the nummerals different IMO.

[Buuzert]

Eric, why do you think they are not same? It seems only black paint is different, hence slightly making the nummerals different IMO.

Hello Yubari,

Maybe I'm looking too much for details but if I right the shape of the dots on the 3 & 9 are different