RK rarity=/=price?

[Erich B.]

Here's something that's been puzzling me. Recently on the e-stand 2 RKs have been offered for sale. One is a K&Q with case--not particularly rare, although the manufacturer named case is tough to find. The other is an L/15 marked Schickle--which, IMO, is much rarer than a K&Q. But, after the piece was listed, the price was questioned and it was felt by several that it was too high. So, I guess I'm wondering why a rarer RK should be worth substantially less than a more common example. I know about supply and demand (that's why I stick to Junckers) but it still does not seem to make sense.
Erich

[Blitz]

Yeah, It is kinda funny. If you look at Detlevs latest catalog there you have a "65" RK priced at 5700 and Schickle priced at 4000-4500. After saying that, if I had to choose between the two, I'd always go for a "65". It's a question preference to me.

[jujuy]

You're right

Yeah, It is kinda funny. If you look at Detlevs latest catalog there you have a "65" RK priced at 5700 and Schickle priced at 4000-4500. After saying that, if I had to choose between the two, I'd always go for a "65". It's a question preference to me.

[jani_tiainen]

demand = price
rarity =/= price

...Jani

[Dietrich Maerz]

Erich,


I think it has a lot to do with "price lobbyismus". Junckers was always pushed by the dealers and the owners as the holy grails of the RK's. Everybody was subscribing to this myth or notion and that's were it leads to.

Pure collectors logic - from a stand point of rarity - should kick up the price for the Schickle quite substantially! But no, the 'market' goes after mint, unissued liveless 'shoplifted' examples and leaves the worn Schickle with battle histiory for the poor collector. Go figure!

Dietrich

[Luftm40]

Also, certain types command more money because the vast majority of collectors (i.e. potential buyers) don't have anywhere near the level of knowledge or sophistication resident in a forum like ours. A textbook Juncker RK, for example, is a slam dunk for a seller. Instantly recognizeable as "right" by even someone w/a medium amount of knowledge. The lesser known types are something different. Schickles, Schinkles, alloy core, non-silver frames...WE know these are OK, but they would be seen as "weird" to the vast majority. In the "real world" of shows and casual collecting, most of the scarce variants I mention above would be considered suspicious at best, hence harder to sell and worth less on the market. Knowledge is power though

[Erich B.]

Dietrich,
I think it's a combination of factors re the Juncker RKs--if collectors want that maker over other manufacturers' pieces, a dealer will charge more because of the demand and competition for the pieces. I have to say that I'm partial to Junckers as well--my first RK (in 1973) was a Juncker, and I prefer the style of that particular maker.
But, I'm with you on used crosses--I like to see RKs with some 'personality'.
Andy--that's very true--Juncker and K&Q RKs are easier to authenticate than many common pieces--so that also makes sense.
I like the odd makers' RKs as well--I guess I shouldn't be complaining that the prices are too low, in case I decide to add more to my collection!
Erich

Erich,


I think it has a lot to do with "price lobbyismus". Junckers was always pushed by the dealers and the owners as the holy grails of the RK's. Everybody was subscribing to this myth or notion and that's were it leads to.

Pure collectors logic - from a stand point of rarity - should kick up the price for the Schickle quite substantially! But no, the 'market' goes after mint, unissued liveless 'shoplifted' examples and leaves the worn Schickle with battle histiory for the poor collector. Go figure!

Dietrich

[Chet Sowersby]

Dietrich,
Ouch! I'll have you know I paid good money for my "shoplifted" K&Q! Seriously I understand what you are saying. One would think that the obviously worn Schinkel on E-stand should have been picked up quickly due to both factors (rarity and worn). The dynamics of our chosen hobby change just as we collectors change the focus of our collections. It goes on all the time within our hobby. As collectors we are all as different as the items we aquire. At another time this RK would not last a day. Then there is the argument that perhaps RK prices have finally topped out reguarless of condition or rarity.

Chet

[Dietrich Maerz]

Chet,

I'm just jealous, thats all ....

Dietrich

[ben bijker]

Here's something that's been puzzling me. Recently on the e-stand 2 RKs have been offered for sale. One is a K&Q with case--not particularly rare, although the manufacturer named case is tough to find. The other is an L/15 marked Schickle--which, IMO, is much rarer than a K&Q. But, after the piece was listed, the price was questioned and it was felt by several that it was too high. So, I guess I'm wondering why a rarer RK should be worth substantially less than a more common example. I know about supply and demand (that's why I stick to Junckers) but it still does not seem to make sense.
Erich

Erich, I don´t follow the daily prices but Weitze sold one of these in the 4.500 euro range not so long ago.
It was worn and very recognizable, but lasted for weeks.

Everyone may ask whatever he wants for his items for sale, but the price for this piece was way off IMO.
I was just wondering what this price was based on.
I shouldn´t have reacted on the sales thread however, but in this case the hand was quicker than the brain.

I don´t think supply and demand justifies this price, neither does 20.000 euro´s for a mint `lazy 2` .



Best regards,
Ben

[Thomas H]

Hi all,

How many members have a KC? And how many of these members that have a KC, have 2 or 3 or ....

When I decided to buy a KC, my first choice was a Zimmermann and my second choice a Juncker (because Juncker pieces are considered the 'Cadillac' of KC). So I bought a Steinhauer and I still love it.

In front of me on my desk I have a printed version of the information from the main page dated 6-21-2001. It's You Andy that wrote the line in bold:

Unless you intend to collect every known type of the KC, it is far safer to acquire a cross having the die, finish and construction characteristics of a known original maker.

Expecting to buy only one KC in my life, I knew that I should buy one that applied to Andy's remark.

I would not buy a Schickle, even if they are less encountered then a Juncker, S&L or K&Q. My next KC could be a Schickle, but not if I can buy a cased Juncker for the same prices. Ben's Question isn't bad. I also would say a Schickle will cost me 4-5K in Euro, So what makes this cross so expansive.

Thomas

[Luftm40]

Thomas...I wrote those words many years ago, but still feel the same way. I personally would not pay an enormous price for one of these scarce, little known (for many anyway) makers or variants. Not that they are any less original or worthwhile, it's just that they are harder to sell when the time comes. Just a preference. I also have in my collection a zinc cored non-silver Juncker. I got this cross w/ an original set of oakleaves attached for $1500 from an estate seller who wasn't sure quite what he was selling. It is a textbook set for anyone who knows detailed info about RKs, but I can guarantee that if I took it to the MAX or similar venue, I would have trouble selling it because the core isn't iron and there are no marks. It's resale value (the cross anyway) is probably less than my L/12 Juncker, even though it is a far more scarce variant.

[ben bijker]

Hi all,

How many members have a KC? And how many of these members that have a KC, have 2 or 3 or ....

When I decided to buy a KC, my first choice was a Zimmermann and my second choice a Juncker (because Juncker pieces are considered the 'Cadillac' of KC). So I bought a Steinhauer and I still love it.

In front of me on my desk I have a printed version of the information from the main page dated 6-21-2001. It's You Andy that wrote the line in bold:

Unless you intend to collect every known type of the KC, it is far safer to acquire a cross having the die, finish and construction characteristics of a known original maker.

Expecting to buy only one KC in my life, I knew that I should buy one that applied to Andy's remark.

I would not buy a Schickle, even if they are less encountered then a Juncker, S&L or K&Q. My next KC could be a Schickle, but not if I can buy a cased Juncker for the same prices. Ben's Question isn't bad. I also would say a Schickle will cost me 4-5K in Euro, So what makes this cross so expansive.

Thomas

Thomas, I have 4 KC's ( or: 3.5 because one has round corners) and two sets of oaks.

I wouldn't mind adding a "textbook" schickle, but since I paid 16.000 euro's for a "800" Juncker with L/50 Oaks AND provenance, I really can't see any reason at all why I would pay almost 10.000 K for a Schickle KC.

Just my 2 cents....

Ben

[Thomas H]

Hi Ben,

I would not buy a Schickle, even if they are less encountered then a Juncker, S&L or K&Q. My next KC could be a Schickle, but not if I can buy a cased Juncker for the same prices.

This sentence is missing the worth 'So' at the beginning. So I would not....

If you buy a KC and especially your first, most people will not buy a Schickle. If you have four KC's, like you have , I can imagine that you are interested in buying a Schickle but for a reasonable price. Most collectors rather have a Juncker, S&L or K&Q so these prices are higher than a KC that isn't so popular among collectors.

Prices are made by 'vraag en aanbod' or in English how many people want a KC and how many KC are offered today. Everybody wants a Juncker, prices will go up (Kai Winkler 13.500 for cased Lazy 2). Not everybody wants a Schickle as long a they still can buy a Juncker, so the price of a Schickle will be lower. But prices will go up for al KC's. I believe the last cased lazy 2 that was sold on a Friday by Detlev Niemann, was 8.500. If Herr Winkler is selling them for 13.500, prices of Schickle's will also go up.

Thomas

[ben bijker]

Hi Ben,

I would not buy a Schickle, even if they are less encountered then a Juncker, S&L or K&Q. My next KC could be a Schickle, but not if I can buy a cased Juncker for the same prices.

This sentence is missing the worth 'So' at the beginning. So I would not....

If you buy a KC and especially your first, most people will not buy a Schickle. If you have four KC's, like you have , I can imagine that you are interested in buying a Schickle but for a reasonable price. Most collectors rather have a Juncker, S&L or K&Q so these prices are higher than a KC that isn't so popular among collectors.

Prices are made by 'vraag en aanbod' or in English how many people want a KC and how many KC are offered today. Everybody wants a Juncker, prices will go up (Kai Winkler 13.500 for cased Lazy 2). Not everybody wants a Schickle as long a they still can buy a Juncker, so the price of a Schickle will be lower. But prices will go up for al KC's. I believe the last cased lazy 2 that was sold on a Friday by Detlev Niemann, was 8.500. If Herr Winkler is selling them for 13.500, prices of Schickle's will also go up.

Thomas

Thomas, that is the reason why I was wondering about the price.
Although less seen, they are less wanted so the price should be accordingly IMO.
(This is also reflected by the prices on the dealers sites)

Nevertheless, I hope the seller gets what he is looking for IF he finds someone who will shell out this kind of dough for this particular KC....

Don´t get me wrong here, it MIGHT be worth the price, but what is it based on??

as you already pointed out very clear, it's not a maker you will be looking for when you want 1 KC.

Regards,
Ben