Grand Cross Of The Iron Cross On Emedals

[Dietrich Maerz]

Is the swastika added to the core? Or cut in relief?

The swastika is a separate piece, glued to the one piece core.

Is there any provenance that this piece was actually delivered to Goering?

Not that I know of. This cross is one of two that were reportedly made for Göring on his orders (Nimmergut). My investigation is completley based on the piece itself.

[Dietrich Maerz]

And the million dollar question, was ''Deutsche-Goldschmiedekunst-Werkstätten, Berlin" active postwar?

That is not really the question, since the possible reproduction or production of such a piece or pieces is not restricted to the ones that initially made it. But to answer the question: No. Deutsche-Goldschmiedekunst-Werkstätten was the name of former Gebr. Friedländer and was never reopened after 1945.

The real question is, if one wants to hint at a post-war fake, who got the original die of the Grand Cross, who had the detailled knowledge to reproduce without basically any logical and visible flaws and - more importantly: Why reproduce to such an intrinsic level of detail? Remember, the fingerprints of the original die were not really known until some 10 years ago? For what kind of market?

[von ropen]

The swastika is a separate piece, glued to the one piece core.



Not that I know of. This cross is one of two that were reportedly made for Göring on his orders (Nimmergut). My investigation is completley based on the piece itself.

Thanks Dietrich


Enviado desde mi iPhone utilizando Tapatalk

[Leroy]

I would not doubt that this piece is wartime made, primarily because of the Juncker die and, to a much lesser extent, the maker mark. My reason for asking about delivery is that the swastika looks, at least to me, poorly "set" onto the core and the reverse date is (very) slightly angled. Knowing Goering's fascination with, and love of, the jeweler's art, I have a sincere doubt that he would have accepted this cross. Wartime made, and made for him, I can believe. Delivered and accepted is where I have some doubt. Maybe there were 3, 4 or 5 made......

Just my "feeling".

[Tony T-S]

Could it have come adrift since the war and been badly attached. Does it show any signs? I agree, the swaz surprises me for such a top quality piece.

[Il_brillante]

Hi guys

please let me thank you all again for all your opinions to this thread, I think it's very interesting and useful to understand more about this piece.

Thanks again

[Dietrich Maerz]

Gentry,

could you please explain exactly what you mean by "poorly set" of the swastika? I can't see it, but will not argue anything about the piece, it is what it is. I can also make no statement about what Göring would have accepted or not, never knew the guy. Maybe you are right and the set disapeared immediately into one of his drawers in one of his residences, maybe he did or didn't see any imperfection.
The cross does not make a worn impression anyway, but could have been cleaned.

What I found most interesting is that this is (so far) the only one with a genuine Juncker frame. The other known pieces do have a frame where the ring sits on top of the frame edge. That does not make them fakes, but it surely makes it harder to prove they are genuine.

[tony james]

Another factor to consider is what else did Goring accept or reject under the influence of cocaine and or other drugs .

[Leroy]

Dietrich,

The kassette photo you posted seems to show the same orientation of the swastika on the cross as appears on the eMedals cross. That orientation is slightly off and the top and bottom arms of the swastika do not point to the center of the top and bottom of the cross frame.

The one posted by you from page 111 of Forman's Bravery Courage and Valour (photo from Thies) of the one supposedly being worn by Goring when he surrendered to US forces has the correct orientation (but a different frame with different ring intrusion).

Again, I don't doubt the wartime production of the one on eMedals and I hope some "deep pocket" collector might acquire it. My only thought is: with a piece of such importance and obvious expense, made by the most prominent of jewelers for Goering personally, who allowed the swastika to be off-kilter?

Tony could be right and Goering might have been under the influence of something. I just know that Goering prided himself as being a stickler in such matters and am very surprised that this would pass. (Also the '1813' is off on the reverse.)

G

[Leroy]

1813. Did you see any sign that the core was "loose" in the frame?

[Dietrich Maerz]

No, I do not remember the core being loose.

[Leroy]

One last question, if anyone knows, just from curiosity: Platinum is harder than silver. Would Juncker have die struck the platinum frames used for these pieces on its equipment, or was the jeweler equipped with such machinery?

[Dietrich Maerz]

Hardness is not really the determination factor for the process of die forging, it is the tensile strength of the material to be formed, i.e. the force necessary to permanently deform a piece of metal. Platin has a nearly double the high tensile strength of silver, which means the die press needs to apply higher force to form the piece. However, since the piece is not large in area and also not thick (o.85 mm), the additional force is not that critical. At any rate, the tensile strength of the hardened die is far higher.
It is my opinion that Juncker would have struck the pieces. Chances that DGW had a machine to which the die could have been fitted, are slim. And it would not be necessary, anyway.

[Casper]

I think collectors sometimes have a tendency to overthink and analyse what would pass inspection on something made almost 80 years ago in a different time. Not only for this piece but also other common pieces.

Even if this piece got rejected, i doubt it would have been tossed out.

[Leroy]

I also doubt that this would have been tossed out. Probably just stuck somewhere.

Goering, as we all know, was a vain person. When something special came his way, his personal photographer would document the event. While nothing to do with this cross, these photos are from the day his RM insignia was delivered for approval.