Do die flaws get bigger over time?

[emaroli]

<HR color=#cfb992 SIZE=1> <!-- / icon and title --><!-- message -->"The beading would not be ground into the production die by hand, it would be cut into the softened die block with a round tip chisel. The cutting tools used by die workers are an enormous array of chisels, gravers, and polisher/burnishing points, rounds and flats. Die engraving-cutting, polishing is not done with one tool, but with many."


But it is still done by hand. And if you read enough WWII history you should know that there was a shortage of skilled tool makers. They were in the service. I also did not say that the tooling was done as outside labor.

[John Pic]

10,000 tinnies..more like 10,000,000 tinnies, some of these were handed out daily.Others were just day badges but everyone participating in a rally was given one.

[emaroli]

I think Bob means 10,000 different types of tinnies not the total number produced. Now if we did have 10,000 different types of tinnies and 100 manufacturers then each manufacturer would have made 100 different types of tinnies. And if we divide this by 10 years than each manufacturer made 10 differerent tinnies a year or one new tinnie every 5.2 weeks. ~Ed

[Bob Hritz]

With that time line, flaws in focal areas appear to progress. This is to establish more definitively that flaws do progress over time and would further the presumption that more flawed crosses were produced later than less flawed crosses.<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

__________________
tom hansen (shadowboy

Tom,

This would be correct if we believe that each cross was made and assembled in the order the parts came off the dies. However, if parts are made and you take the last made part and assemble the medal, the flaw may be greater than using the first made part. This is only applicable if the flaw continues to grow. Using logic, the first available part is the last part of a production run.

Now, if you want to go further, the flaw may have grown with stamping and been placed in storeage for future use. Then the last produced pieces are the first used, unless some warehouseman wanted to reverse the order of the pieces. They would not be dumped into a bin as silver is malleable and disruption and entanglement would cause future defects or difficulties in assembly. If you have ever worked piecework, the last made piece is on the top of the stack for assembly. Now when the cores are mated up and all soldering and finishing is done, the stack is reversed, making the last made individual pieces the bottom of the finished prodcuct.

These are so many speculations that give a time line a few warps, but we can surely figure out the time line on progression of specific types, such as the Juncker. Steinhauer, being a much larger firm, may have had much more inventory, finished or unfinished, so the time line is tough.

To further muddy the water, if a production run is 1000 pieces and the contract order is 500 pieces, the remailing warehouse stock may be used months, or years after production. If a 2nd order comes in for 1000 crosses, another 2000 may be made and new and old production mixed in fulfilling the current order.

Emaroli,

You use flawed math trying to compare tinnie production to overall production. Now, add in buttons, metal insignia, awards, non governmental contracts for event pins, etc and you might find dies were produced almost daily. It has been many years since I was involved with the accounting aspects of large and small manufacturing companies. But, doing cost accounting of manufracturing, I was required to determine the total cost of any aspect of a product. I could tell my boss the cost of each step in the production of a widgit or how much it cost the company to drive a company car one mile. Cost accounting also inolves the averaging of cost basis on remaining inventory and new production inventory. Costs rise and fall, but a total cost of production must be accounted for so costs do change with each production run. These changes must be accounted for when an order come in and you sell part of one production and part of another, or more. You can't tell your customer, that 200 widgits cost 40 cents each, the next 57 cost 36 cents each and the final 43 widgits cost 45 cents. There must be a cost of widgits which will be averaged, unless you are producing a single run and fulling an order for the entire run. This might work for a day event, like tinnies, but it won't work for Wound Badges, for which there will be future orders. That was my job. Now you will no longer wonder why I decided to be a cop instead of remaining an accountant!

I have read a book or 2 on history and know that many war workers were exempt from the draft. If you put production people in uniform you would be reduced to throwing rocks at the enemy. Using the historic logic of any leader, men fight for three things: land (plunder), food, and shiny things on ribbons. Napoleon was so chever that he would remove his Legion of Honor and award it to the greatest hero of any battle. Of course, Napoleon would return to his quarters and replace his Legion of honor. Hitler knew that men fought for the same rasons and that is one of the reasons for the prolific decorations and the use of them in combat. The assembly of orders and medals may well have been left to the older, younger, prisoners or women, but you can bet Hitler was not going to close these companies by drafting all the skilled workers.

We may see the resultant deterioration of awards because of the deterioration of available material quality, but the overal construction and finish was done as well as the materials would allow, to the final days of the 3rd Reich.

Bob Hritz
apparantly with too much time on my hands

[Sonderkommando]

Bob,
I am glad you do have "too much time on your hands" as it has been very interesting reading.
Thanks

Regards,
Brett

[tom hansen]

Bob-


Thanks- I can see what you are saying. If these crosses were made in a batch and some were used, while others sat until another order was recieved, then there would be a group of frames struck at one time, with some assembled immediately and others later.

1. One would think that there would then be some expected cross over, with the majority of early pieces identified with the earlier stamp (or non-stamp), while some of the later stampled crosses would have characteristics of the "early" crosses, given that they were struck early. This does not appear to be the case with the junckers, in that the early crosses are unflawed and the later crosses are more flawed. This appears to be a trend, but will need more samples.

2. Given we identify sub types by stampings (800 , lazy 2), then the issue becomes as well when they are stamped with these marks. Certainly before assembly, but is it immediately before assembly or just after stamping? If just after stamping, that would tend to reduce the "scatter" created by mixing old and new stamped frames.

[emaroli]

Bob, I was the production manager of stamping plant. I spend my days between the office the tool room and the press room. The last thing we ever did was make extra dies. It is a waste of money. This is how we made stampings. Second my math is not flawed it was used as a simple example. If you want to add more widjits to the formula( buttons, insignia) then I can add more manufacturers. There were well over 100.
As I said before pieces are made in production runs. The more you order the cheaper the piece becomes. Its the economy of mass prodution. And it is for this reason pieces and parts are commonly stocked by the producer in expectation of sales. The labor is in the tooling and the set up time. Once a tool is in place it is very cheap to keep a press operator pumping out the parts.
According to the Niemann book there are roughly 20,000 KC's produced and over 20 different types. That is only 1,000 of each type on average. Unless there was some real good reason there would be no reason to make a second die for the frame. Making a second die would only cost money. This would bite into profits or one could raise the price. If price is too high the customer will go elsewhere. ~Ed

[tom hansen]

Thanks Ed-



This and the progression of flaws over the known juncker time line seems to point, at least to me, to the presumption that there was one juncker RK die and a progression of flaws on that die. I can see what Bob is saying about the production of a number of pieces at one time. But again, the real question is when were they then stamped, as this is the means by which we identify subtypes.

[Bob Hritz]

Ed,


I never said extra dies were made without reason. We must look at the technology of the day and that if you wanted to have the identical die for future use, the male positive die hub was created for making dies as they need be replaced. From the repaired die Anti Partisan badges we encounter, it is apparant that making replacement dies was of little importance, even when a flawed product was the result. I do believe that the frame dies for stamping silver would have lasted for many decades, had the set up man not overset the press travel which forced the die to crack. I have little doubt that the flawed cracked dies continued to be used because of the "who cares" factor.

Now, we know that when mold injected and die FORGED (metal heated to plastic state, not liquified) process, several manufacturers used multiple dies. Assmann is one example with a 6 die block for the late A L/64 Paratroop Badges. The wreath dies were numbered which bore the die number on the badge itself. This mark allowed quality control to know if and when a die needed cleaning or repair. I am sure we can see the timy differences in many badges and metals as a result of die cleaning, which can take the crispness out of detail. I would love to see a detailed examination of all the 6 numbered Assman Para wreaths to see if each was created with one master male hub.

Ed, when we meet let's have a nice cold Jim Beam and forget all about the process of making 3rd Reich Badges with 1930's and 1940's technology.

As a side note, does anyone know why the different paints were used on L/12 marked and #2 marked Juncker crosses?

Bob Hritz

[Bob Hritz]

Ed,


I always envied the tool and die makers job when I was stuck as the 'bean counter'. A lot of the guys really loved their work and the more complex problem they had the happier they were. To create anything with the hands and mind is truely ART and I envy those with such talents.

Bob Hritz

[tom hansen]

Thank you Ed and Bob very much for the detailed and knowledgeable discussion of dies. I for one found it very informative.



"As a side note, does anyone know why the different paints were used on L/12 marked and #2 marked Juncker crosses?"

--Bob- The SEM information showed that the lazy 2 paint is bone black paint, as is the 800 crosses, but with a different elemental composition. It is a different paint in appearance as well as composition compared to 800 only marked crosses. I guess no one knows why they switched, but it is definately different than that on the 800s. On 300X magnification, it shows a non uniform appearance with small chunks of calcium phosphate, or bone.

[Luftm40]

Interesting discussion. I think another point is that not all dies are equal. Some, like the ones needed to make a tinnie (or an RK for that matter) are flat, simple and rather one dimensional. The die for, say, a pilot badge would have been more complicated to make as it would have to be almost 3 dimensional detail. I think a more complex die would have been more expensive and time consuming to produce.

[emaroli]

Andy, that is true. However round things like tinnies put much less stress on a tool and die than sharps ( EK corners ). As the forgers already know an RK is easier to make than a pilot badge just due to the thickness and complexity of the badge. There are 3 parts to a KC with the ring intergral to the frame. There are 8 parts to a pilot badge. More parts = more money.

[Erickn]

Two 800 L/12s

Tom,

Here are a couple.

[Erickn]

B

3:00-6:00 arm intersection