L/12 marked EK2 spanges. Do they exist???

[Biro]

I've gotta agree. Bob's is a well-made, quality piece!

And may well complete the picture for the L/12 series.

Oh me of little faith........this is big news for a lot of us.

Thank you Bob.....

Regards

Marshall

[George Stimson]

Very similar! (But still different -- no lines in the small feathers on the wings of the unmarked example, for instance....)

[Bob Hritz]

Here is a photo of a pair of 1st patterm, unmarked examples. The 1st Class is finised very much like the L/12 2nd Class example I posted. However, the details are strikingly different and I believe that, if they are made by Juncker, the dies were completely replaced when the corrected straight edged type was created.


Bob Hritz


OBVERSE

[Bob Hritz]

Verso

[George Stimson]

I wonder if the dies were completely replaced again after the Juncker factory was bombed in 1944?

[Bob Hritz]

A possible Juncker which is nicely mounted to a 1914 EK1.


Bob Hritz

[Bob Hritz]

Natural light

[Bob Hritz]

Verso is as nice as the obverse

[Biro]

Of course, things get further complicated.....

Here are two 'Juncker look-a-likes' with the same feather and chest veins as Bobs maker marked example that I discussed with Frank Heukemes way back in 2003, at the tail end of this thread .... http://www.wehrmacht-awards.net/foru...829#post282829

At that point, Frank (who knows his spanges..) seemed pretty adament that they were 'definitely known fakes'.... but I admit to being confounded by Bob's lovely example..

It would be interesting to hear from Frank about these fakes, particularly upon the emergence of Bob's very convincing marked version... and to further continue the discussion about Standard form L/12 2nd class spanges

Marshall

[Brian S]

A possible Juncker which is nicely mounted to a 1914 EK1.


Bob Hritz

Attributes I look for in these combos is certainly evident on this combo. Nice one.

[Biro]

I wonder if the dies were completely replaced again after the Juncker factory was bombed in 1944?

George..

Do you mean replaced with the Standard Pattern version exhibited by Bob?....or with a third much cruder version such as we are currently seeing...?


Marshall

[George Stimson]

Marshall

The cruder version. I mean, wasn't the Second Pattern (i.e., no scalloped date bar) in use well before 1944?

[Biro]

Yes indeed it was......I new you wouldn't trip up that easy...

I would pitch that a more likely scenario is the out-sourcing of product after 44...rather than commisioning of a 3rd die....

With a fairly distinct design precedent set to date with the stylish 1st Pattern and now Bobs Standard Pattern in the same 'mold'....if they did commission a new (and quite obviously NOT the previous) Graveurmeister to make a third die, I can not believe they abandoned all previous styling concepts, and embraced such a below par design.

One could understand that given the prospect and expense of re-building a still smoldering factory, Juncker instead chose to simply L/12 mark out-sourced pieces from 44 on rather than retool and produce a third version spange……

This would easily explain the big dip in design quality....but is of course, nothing but speculation.

So here we are, where militaria usually seems to end up....full circle...

Marshall

[Biro]

Back to the top...

.....because I see Frank Heukemes is back in action, and may have something further to add to this discussion on the Standard Form Juncker EK2 Spange.

Marshall

[Frank Heukemes]

You cannot possibly compare a spange eagle with a pilot badge eagle. It might even not have been the same designer's and die cutter's work, although both are Juncker.

I think it is very well possible that Juncker also made the more crappy L/12 spanges, apart from the nice early ones such as Bob's. Not all of their badges are high quality. In fact, rather the opposite is true.

It is remarkable to what extent Juncker badges are clearly definable and timeline-compatible in some areas such as the pilot's badge and how mysterious their various designs can become when looking at EKs and spanges.

I think we have to free ourselves from the "put into well defined drawers" thinking when it comes to Juncker spanges and EKs. There seems to have been alot of room for experimenting with different designs, materials, maker marks and finishes. Still, an original item talks to you, the fakes don´t.