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    #16
    Yes, both 57er (yes, I use that term regardless of the 57er laws or the 57er Staazi say). Both appear to be later SuL.

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      #17
      Yes, both 57er ...
      No, both are not 57er, regardless of the reverie of a very few ignoramuses.

      I use that term regardless of the 57er laws ...
      Without the 57er law there are no 57er decorations.

      Uwe

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