Detlev's KC to paratrooper

[Ralph A]

An interesting piece he listed yesterday. Wonder who will acquire it?

So tempted.... but it is probably gone already anyway. Almost exactly what I am looking for, though.

Oh well.....

[Dave Kane]

I wonder!!

Jeweler made? Not with those SHARP edges! We love and respect the dealer but, I think that a 'special order' such as this would have been made from a jeweler's mold of an original and certainly wouldn't have points and edges that appear so sharp!
Possibly yet another 'slight of hand' by a visiting and admiring collector. Sadly, look at Topp's RK in the Iron Times...
I just don't think that a jeweler (artist) would leave such a hand made thing so roughly finished! Detlev, your thoughts?
John

[Mohawkwarrior]

I hate to be a descending voice but I would gather by reading these threads that John J.owns all the original KCs ever produced.

[Bill D.]

Frankly, I'm afraid that I don't agree.

I don't see this set of leaves as exhibiting "sharp edges".

Beyond that, the "award" letter from General Heidrich is dated 30 April 1945. That was exactly 1 week before the war ended. The photographic evidence would seem to indicate that these are trhe exact leaves presented to the recipient. Generalized statements about what a jeweler would or would not have done, when the jeweler was in a contested war zone and the war was obviously going to end very soon is not, I think, a sound basis upon which to conclude that there is something amiss.

No Italian jeweler was working on a set of oak leaves in April of 1945 and thinking "Gosh, it's been swell having the Germans here for the last 4 years. I wish they weren't going to be surrendering to the Allies so soon. It'd be nice to have them around for another few years. I know this is a pretty high award so I'm going to do everything that I can to match this little bauble as exactly as possible with another set, (that he may or may not have had), and especially so that 60 years from now no one will be able to question this trinket as having been made by my own little Italian jeweler's hands!"

I don't think so.

[Dave Kane]

The RK awarded in Sept. 44 still has evidence of the frosting and a great compliment of the painted finish BUT, the Oaks, awarded in the final days, show an incredible amount of surface wear and the abrupt cut-offs to the ribbon hanger. Why?

[Ralph A]

Excellent comments.

The first thing I noticed were the sharp edges to the ends of the Eichenlaub ribbon loop. But there is no pretence to being an expert on my part...

I have been heavily researching these items recently (finished absorbing "The Iron Time" just last week - and I am eager to get Gordon's book in a day or so) and I know there is a long way for me to go before feeling comfortable enough to acquire a piece like this.

I must be getting somewhere though, as some of these comments entail observations I made independently. Pro and con, I would probably try and get the set if the timing was right.

But an informed decision on my part is still months away! Thanks to all, and... any more comments?

[Frank Heukemes]

I think the most important comment was made by Bill. The proof is in the pictures going along with this lot. Detlev and the buyer know more than we do just by studying them. I believe Detlev not to be a person to say these were Milano jeweller made if he didn´t have some extra proof for that than just a story from the previous owner.

Sharp edges or not, the pictures would be the decisive factor for me in this deal.

Btw, on a different topic, Italy was not "occupied", it was an ally of Nazi Germany, even if the alliance was not really existing anymore at that timeframe we look at. More Italians than one tends to think were and are Fascists.

Cheers, Frank H.

[Ralph A]

That's great, Frank

I agree 100% with that.

BTW my wife, Kathie, with a good eye for detail, exclaimed when I showed her the pictures of the lot:

"Well I guess you know it's gotta be the real thing; there's a picture of the guy wearing it!"

[François SAEZ]

For info, if it can help:

General Heydrich gave his own set of oak leaves to a Milano jeweler to order 2 set to award 2 of his soldiers:
- Major Kurt Veith (group proposed by Niemann)
- Oberleutnant Helmut Gustav Goertz, an old time paratrooper NCO, who got his knightcross already in 1940 for the bridge of Dordrecht, Holland.

* The group of Goertz have the IDENTICAL papers (for this period) and OL than the one sold by Niemann.

Nothing "strange" or to wonder here.

François

[Mark S.]

There is a fine line between being careful and being outright paranoid, and I think John has crossed over that line. I have to wonder of the benefits of dialog when it is constantly injected with unbased and unfounded skepticism. I dont mean to be insulting, John, but sometimes you cant see the forest for the trees.

[Bill D.]

Frank...

A bit off the precise topic, but I thank you for the clarification on the subject of Italy, as "occupied" versus "German Ally".

When I typed my comments I was thinking of the fact that the date at issue was after Mussoilini had been dismissed by the Fascist Council, and the subsequent declaration of the Italian Republic. However, I think that you are correct since there were, as I recall, two Italian governments by 30 April, 1945: the pro-German fascist regime, and the Italian Republlc.

You would think with a name like "Dienna" I'd be a little clearer on Italian history, but we had been in the Sates for several generations by then!

[IVAN]

Hi,

Milan was never occupied from Germany but it made part of the territory checked by the fascist strengths of Mussolini.

Up to the month of April 1945 it was center of the central commands of the German strengths in Italy and the troops of affiliation to the garrison in Milan, they freely left Milan at the end of the month, after negotiations also with the partisan strengths (of which one of the partisan heads were Sandro Pertini, future President of the Italian Republic in the years '80) and the strong intervention of the church with the Cardinal Schuster - Italian bishop of Milan - for the Germans.

Ivan

[Dave Kane]

.....and so it continues! A ligitimate observation/question regarding the workmanship and outward appearance of an item is answered with misinformed commentary. Certainly, a jeweler would want to show off his best work; even if it were made with a wax mold of an item..this does not show that at all! The pictures don't show a bloody thing to support the Oaks as pictured!
History (at least) is available at any library yet some spout off without availing themselves of this opportunity for research! Then the same people offer information that (to a novice) would sound like facts!
No, I'll continue to question...it's very healthy and wise in this hobby.
John

[Bill D.]

Never mind.

[Dave Kane]

In no way were my comments directed at Detlev's honesty! He has proven his reputation time and again...I questioned the sloppy manner of finish on the Oaks' hanger. The sharply angled and cut-off edges just appear incongruous.
Recently, Detlev was 'fooled' in to offering for sale an alleged Police General's tunic (which wasn't) and when brought to his attention, he pulled it. Certainly, he could be 'fooled' again and, until someone questions he may not take a second look!
John