LdO-Numbers / PKZ-Numbers

[Dietrich Maerz]

I'm confused with some of the (evidently) contradictions in the use and interpretations of the PKZ-Number on awards. Maybe we can bring some light into this issue with our combined knowledge.

Gordon Williamson says in his book that during a meeting on Jul 15 1940 the LdO was founded and that the actual numbering system was introduced on 1 March 1941.

First question:

Where the PKZ-Numbers introduced:

- before that date?
- at the same date?
- after that date?

Gordon also states in his excellent book that the use of the PKZ numbers was mandated in late 1944 (page 295) or mid 1944 (page 482) for marking the Ritterkreuz.

Second question:

Was the PKZ-Number used before in marking the Ritterkreuz?

It surely seems so with other awards like the DKiG, EK2, Ostmedaille and others. I don't think that all those marked pieces were produced after mid 1944.
On apge 293 Gordon shows a Deschler, marked with the PKZ-number "1" and the core is made of non-iron. Something pointing very clearly to 'early in the war", for sure not after 1941 with it's rules and regualtions regarding the manufacturing of orders and medals.

On page 46 Gordon states that from 1944 onwards all awards supplied to the Praesidialkanzlei were to carry the official PKZ number. So from that, any DK, any non-LdO marked EK2 and so on was produced after mid 1944?

Does somebody have some more information regarding the seemingly not yet 100% clear use and interpretation of the PKZ-number. The best, of course, would be articles from the "Uniformen-Markt", "Schwert und Spaten" and/or "Signal".

Thank you!

Dietrich

[Laurence Strong]

Hi Dietrich

Could you explain PKZ please, I think I have missed something here?

[Dietrich Maerz]

Laurence,

the PKZ-number iwas the official number supplied to each licensed individual manufacturer of an order or an award. The number was assigned by the Präsidialkanzlei des Führers who's official in charge was Dr. Heinrich Doehle.For instance, Juncker hat the PKZ-number "2" and the LdO-number L/12.

PKZ stand for "Präsidialkanzlei"

Only orders or awards with the sole purpose of being officially awarded were marked with the PKZ-number.

Dietrich

[tom hansen]

There is some circumstantial evidence on Kai Winklers site. There is a VERY worn juncker lazy 2 RK that has the ring nearly worn through. It would be very unlikely that this amount of wear would occur in one year.


Heavy zimmerman DKiGs are considered early and are 20 marked. Early Deschler 6 rivet DKiGs are unmarked. I have a Deschler four rivet DKiG with provenance awarded in early 1943 which has a "1" mark.

Early RK KVKs, the heavy version, are marked "1" with the silver stamp. I have a RK KVK with provenance from 1943 that is "1" marked.

[Jim Baker]

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[Dietrich Maerz]

The reason I'm asking is this: So far - during the S&L debate - it was always taken for absolutely granted that the 800-4 and 935-4 MUST have been produced resp. marked after mid 44 and are therefore late war models.

During my current research I stumbled again over this 'Timeline' and the semingly unreconcilable 'fact' the flawed crosses fall into the same time frame as the unflawed 800-4 and 935-4.

Looking at other orders and medals, especially the DK and the EK2 I find this notion of "PKZ-marking only after mid 44" no longer true.

So the basic question at this point in time remains: When was the PKZ number introduced? Was it also at the same time as the LdO numbers? And did manufacturers use the PKZ number before mid 44, mainly for RK's in this case?

Dietrich

[Sonderkommando]

Dietrich,
Here is a cross that may be of interest to you. This is a Third Reich made EK2 with an Imperial centre, but the ring is marked "1" for Deschler.
I refer to you comment.....
"Only orders or awards with the sole purpose of being officially awarded were marked with the PKZ-number."
I feel that this cross pictured would be more of a replacement cross than an officially awarded piece, so maybe the PK numbers were used on awards other than ones intended for an official award.
Hope it is of some help,

Regards,
Brett

[Sonderkommando]

.

[Dietrich Maerz]

Hope it is of some help,

Regards,
Brett

Hi Brett,

surely helps to confuse the issue even more . Maybe they used the 'standard' ring for a LdO piece. That would be my guess. For sure is one thing, the Praesidialkanzlei did not give out WW1 crosses as official award pieces!!!!

How could one find a clear spot in time (say 1941 for instance) where a PKZ number was used and could have only be used at this point in time?

Dietrich

[Dietrich Maerz]

Bump!

[Sonderkommando]

Hi Dietrich,
I have another cross to throw into the discussion.
This is another Third Reich made Imperial EK1 and is marked "26" on the pin. I am beginning to think the PK marked crosses and awards weren't strictly for presentation only. I believe they were kept by the PKZ to be issued as replacement crosses for awards lost in combat. (but that still doesn't explain my EK2 ) However, I think the PK numbers were in use earlier than we accept.

Regards,
Brett

[George Stimson]

I think that we too often rely on the stereotype of Germans as being absolutely rigid and controlling when we consider things like maker markings. Maybe the P numbers appear on some TR-style 1914 EKs simply because the assembler carelessly put pins or rings with them on the crosses and nobody really cared.

[Dietrich Maerz]

George,

I believe that, too and I said so numerous times. It would be completely wrong to slavishly believe in the 'perfect' German worker. There are numerous examples.

The basic question however remains:

When were the PKZ-numbers 'invented' and asigned to the companies?

From that point on one could venture to say that the numbers where used regularily or even just sporadic. This we might not be able to proove. But I seriously doubt that the notion "only after mid 44" is true. Maybe absolutely necessary and mandated, yes. But not in the sense "no PKZ-marking before mid 44".

I think it's important to find out since it seriously effects the time line of some medals.

Dietrich

[Marc Garlasco]

George,

Thank you. Sometimes we hold to these hard and fast conclusions that everything was a certain way because it was in some rule, guideline, or because the trains ran on time. Looking at warbadges we often see the seemingly oddest variations, but they are genuine. Not everything is neat and tidy as we would like or think it is.

Marc

[George Stimson]

Maybe the use of P numbers was mandated after mid-1944, but I can't see that they weren't in use before that. There are just too many awards marked with them to think that they were all manufactured that late in the war. (That we haven't yet been able to answer this question just goes to show how little we really "know" about our hobby! )