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**Dietrich Maerz** · 11-21-2017, 07:11 PM

Again, it boils down to one single question: how would anybody know that a single stick pin on a lapel is a EK1 or an EK2? Nobody during the Third Reich would have pretended to have the EK1 and it was "only" an EK2.
The only way out, be it in 1939 or 1945 is to have two EKs for the EK1 and one for the EK2!

**Dansson** · 11-22-2017, 04:29 AM

Originally posted by J C Gray View Post

any period catalogue that I have seen just seems to label the single stickpins as "EK".

I don't have much knowledge regarding miniatures, but based on that I could draw a conclusion of that they are just labelled "EK".
If one had the EK2, one EK stickpin. If one had both the EK2 and the EK1, two stickpins or one that has both on it.

**sanya13** · 11-22-2017, 07:13 AM

I agree with Dietrich

**CMSgt** · 11-22-2017, 09:39 AM

Originally posted by Dansson View Post

I don't have much knowledge regarding miniatures, but based on that I could draw a conclusion of that they are just labelled "EK".
If one had the EK2, one EK stickpin. If one had both the EK2 and the EK1, two stickpins or one that has both on it.

One would have both EKs. Jim

Attached Files

front2.jpg (98.5 KB, 82 views)

**Peter J.** · 11-22-2017, 09:41 AM

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We as collectors strive to find consensus about the stuff we collect, based on the available info we can find. Conflicting opinions will always be a reality, due to the complexity and the fact that there is rarely only one answer to a question. I respect the opinions of others, but I expect the arguments to be relevant to the actual question at hand. In this case it’s how we perceive a single EK stickpin, our aim should rather be how the producers viewed this topic. Contemporary publications have over the years been used for confirmation of our theories, including the sales catalogues. One shouldn’t put all one’s trust in the latter, but retracting them from the context in order to validate a theory doesn’t sit well with me. I can’t come up with “solid” proof of an alternative scenario, but using a regulation from July 1941 isn’t proof either. I fully agree with your account for the single EK stickpin from after this date, but the previous 2 years are still worthy a discussion. Some of the arguments presented here are probably one of the reasons the LDO realized they needed to make some adjustments. In order to express my thoughts, it’s necessary to view the minis of 1914.

The EK stickpins from 1914 came in several different sizes and the definition of their status is accounted for in the available sales catalogues. As mentioned here, some producers labeled the smaller sizes (9-11mm) only as EK, but the majority offered the 16mm as a 1.Kl. (some even down to 12-13mm). Even though the 9mm version wasn’t defined as a 2.Kl, I’m confident that was the intension. It wouldn’t be possible to wear a single EK1 stickpin, hence the difference in size. The use of two 9mm EK’s was a way of flashing more decorations and the combos with an 11mm/9mm can probably be seen as what I refer to as a “wholesale dealer-version”.

With the reinstitution of the 1939 EK, it’s most likely the producers continued in the same fashion, not taking into account the newly instituted KC. It’s interesting to note that the LDO apparently had a different view on the concept 16mm, as their concerns about the possible implications of a single EK wouldn’t be an issue, had they accepted the 16mm version as a 1.kl. The end result of their regulation was drastic, a single EK stickpin couldn’t be worn, only as a less attractive ribbon rosette. I can visualize a problem though, had there been any combos with two 16mm EK’s, but that is something I don’t think we will ever encounter. In short, I believe the concepts made for the 1914 minis remained the same in those two first years of the war.
A side note about the criteria for the KC mini. The rule set up by Doele leaves no room for interpretation i.e. a single 16mm EK on a button with rosette can only be a KC. The jump ring on the mini pictured in his book is the same as on the actual sized KC, which you suggest is the way to differentiate it from a 15mm EK2 for wear on ring with a jump ring angled 90 degrees. Once again, most likely correct for the late war issues, but not according to the early sales catalogues i.g. Petz & Lorenz. The two 16mm EK’s (1914 and 1939) are both identical to Doehle’s type regarding the jump ring and the 1939 version is offered as an EK. Just like any other sales catalogue, the 16mmKC is not represented. I think the lack of exposure of 16mm KC’s in said early catalogues has a simple explaination, there was no demand for them. A KC awardee in those early years would probably take any opportunity to wear his prestigious neck decoration, rather than a tiny pin on his chest.
Finally, these reflections shouldn’t be viewed as undisputable facts, only as my contribution to an interesting discussion.

cheers
Peter

**CMSgt** · 11-22-2017, 10:42 AM

Kc

Peter, here is a stickpin with a KC, EKI, EKII and spanges. Jim

Attached Files

RKEKsEKs%20(6).jpg (101.3 KB, 80 views)

**Peter J.** · 11-22-2017, 11:12 AM

Jim, that's a nice combo in zinc.

Here are two more with different quality.

cheers
Peter

Attached Files

**Dietrich Maerz** · 11-22-2017, 11:15 AM

Thanks Peter for the reasonable explanation.
It could very well be that in the very early years the manufacturer fell back to their experience of the Great War. However, and that is and was always my stance, in order to be sure and to give a solid answer one should base everything on contemporary sources. And they are pretty clear. An extrapolation from catalogs from the Great War is tricky.
Maybe in the early days a single pin was considered an EK1, for the great majority of the time and the great majority of of awardees (if they ever bought a pin) it surely was an EK2.

**Dietrich Maerz** · 11-22-2017, 11:40 AM

The interesting pin here is the RK with Oakleaves. Dr. Doehle states that this is one of the allowed single item pins. Strangley enough he does not list the EK2 as a single pin, but it is shown as part of a combination (on page 173).

Attached Files

Scan286.jpg (176.7 KB, 75 views)

**Peter J.** · 11-22-2017, 02:03 PM

I hear you Dietrich, in the best of worlds any official regulation outranks all other reference, but without them alternative contemporary info ought to at least be considered. Just out of curiosity, what's your take on other contemporay publications i.g. "Das Dritter Reich" or the 1940 Hessethal und Schreiber?

"The interesting pin here is the RK with Oakleaves. Dr. Doehle states that this is one of the allowed single item pins. Strangley enough he does not list the EK2 as a single pin, but it is shown as part of a combination (on page 173)."

Like I said, I don't have his books, hence I can't comment on what's on that page. Please enclose an excerpt and I'll be more than happy to elaborate.

cheers
Peter

**Dietrich Maerz** · 11-22-2017, 02:19 PM

Here it is:

Attached Files

Scan287.jpg (220.1 KB, 67 views)

**Green** · 11-22-2017, 02:30 PM

Two singles from my own collection.

20150401_190733.jpg

**Peter J.** · 11-22-2017, 04:03 PM

"Strangley enough he does not list the EK2 as a single pin, but it is shown as part of a combination (on page 173).".

I can understand how you reason, at least if we consider the cause for the ban (risk of misinterpretation), but I don't think anyone would ever question the class of a single 9mm EK on a combo (EK2). For five years this had been common practise, the single pin EK presented other problems (see my previous post) The only other scenario possible would be the awardee's other decorations represented as 9mm's on a combo and the EK2 worn as a ribbon rosette. Quite complicated if you ask me.

The two singles with WHS shown by Green are represented in the sales catalogues and also logical compared to the single stick pins of the higher classes of the KC, as the representation of yet another class/or representation in both cases makes another decoration redundant. This corresponds with the official view of wear in general i.e. don't wear your decorations as a peacock

cheers
Peter

**jack1** · 09-30-2019, 04:57 PM

You can not tell anything from any of these pictures.
A good start is to see Mr Jo Rivetts video on ek stick pin,the one he has under the scope will show most on this thread a fake.

**Dietrich Maerz** · 09-30-2019, 05:10 PM

So either you can’t tell anything from these photos, as you say - or they are all fakes based on Joe’s video. Can’t have both I think!

Quite a few companies made these miniatures and to my knowlegde there was no manufacturing instruction given by the PKZ. That makes it very hard to determine what is good and what is bad. I refer to the outstanding article of Oliver Arndt about the miniatures of the EK!

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