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**5tefan** · 09-02-2017, 02:28 PM

Originally posted by Dietrich Maerz View Post

And if you read through it you will see that all but two clearly stated that it is a fake.

That is of course you statement at the beginning.
If you read all, would this be your same opinion?

Where are the other fakes like this???

**5tefan** · 09-02-2017, 02:41 PM

Originally posted by Dietrich Maerz View Post

Ok, I will put you out of your missery! The real name is Erich Olczyk, you must learn to spell the names correctly!

Yes, you are named in that book!

It says: "An additional great Thank You I would like to extend to Stefan Temme. He has professionally scanned and prepared all the documents shown in this book."

Since I have that book (you know that I wrote the Foreword, don't you?), also a nice Thank You from my side. Great operation of the scanner indeed. But does that make you more knowledgeable on the topic of the German Cross itself?

I also took some pictures of about 60 DK's which was not puplished in this book, due to it should be a focus on the certification! That was my benefit working on this book, to take the photos for my www.dk-dna.de page

**Dietrich Maerz** · 09-02-2017, 02:48 PM

Good for you! So you are not only a good scanner but also an experienced photo taker!

But, and that is the question here, does that make the DK in question a real one?

Just to save the people time to go through the old thread (where nearly all people were of the opinion it is a fake) here are some facts: The awardee was captured by the Americans and released after the war, surely not with his DK. So it was stated, he left it at home and had a cloth version for the Americans to take. The cross was obtained from him long after the war.

You can believe whatever you want, though!

Where are the other fakes like this?

That is really not the right question. The right question is this: where are all the other alleged originals like this? All lost in time? PKZ ordered only one? Of all the other makers, even the very rare and early ones, there are multiple examples. Not from this one. Guess why? If one would accept the notion that because there is only one it must be real, the hobby would be in a sorry state.

**Thomas Durante** · 09-03-2017, 07:47 AM

Originally posted by Dietrich Maerz View Post

That is really not the right question. The right question is this: where are all the other alleged originals like this? All lost in time? PKZ ordered only one? Of all the other makers, even the very rare and early ones, there are multiple examples. Not from this one. Guess why? If one would accept the notion that because there is only one it must be real, the hobby would be in a sorry state.

AGREED. The trend these days seems to be that collectors want to prove something is fake rather than proving its original. Unless you get really lucky, its almost impossible to prove a negative. Almost impossible to prove something is a fake. Instead, the onus is to prove something is original. Where is the evidence that this DK is wartime? Lay out the evidence for it instead of trying to prove there are "no fakes like this one"! Finding a single one with a single vet story is not good enough, by a long shot. Especially these days where vet stories are unreliable and every other item comes with one...

Tom

**IVAN** · 09-04-2017, 01:40 AM

Hi Stefan,

maybe you know , I like DK's and I know something ( not so much like forum moderators

) .

Seriousely, wich can be the maker about you for this cross?

Please, can you tell me the exactly weight and dimensions?

thanks
Ivan

**Operation Cobra** · 09-04-2017, 05:25 AM

Originally posted by IVAN View Post

Hi Stefan,

maybe you know , I like DK's and I know something ( not so much like forum moderators

) .

Seriousely, wich can be the maker about you for this cross?

Please, can you tell me the exactly weight and dimensions?

thanks
Ivan

Hello Ivan, I have been following this post and would like to better understand your question please.

**IVAN** · 09-04-2017, 07:44 AM

Originally posted by Operation Cobra View Post

Hello Ivan, I have been following this post and would like to better understand your question please.

in order to analyze this cross, first, we must know weight and dimensions.

Then, I would like to know Stefan's toughts about wich firm can have done this cross.

**Brian S** · 09-04-2017, 10:16 AM

Originally posted by 5tefan View Post

That is why a good DK book is missing!
This cross is awarded 17th of November 1941 to Erich Olezyk!
The were some pictures shown from him, but unfortunatly I can not find the thread here on WAF anymore. Maybe someone can remember who start this thread.

Sorry, it is an early DK an the picture of the person who wear it shows some matching characteristics!

IMO no fake and that is the reason that we need a better book!

www.dk-dna.de

I am no expert on DK's and I have "the book" (signed by the author too). Able to match detail for detail. DK's, at least, are a known population.

An eBook would have been more handy on the road.

And no way you can definitively say the photos I see here on the forum conclusively lead to the identification of that object.

**5tefan** · 09-04-2017, 03:54 PM

Originally posted by IVAN View Post

in order to analyze this cross, first, we must know weight and dimensions.

Then, I would like to know Stefan's toughts about wich firm can have done this cross.

I would say some maker next to Lüdenscheid! Possible could be Deumer!
If this is only a fake, then we must talk about a Frankenstein! Because they use authentic/ original parts for the pinsetup! But still imo for me it is an authentic cross where the maker did not get the production approval, due to the rare band and small date design!

Of Course it is much more easy to say to something which is not known, it is a fake

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**IVAN** · 09-05-2017, 03:59 AM

Hi Stefan,

Hope can understand my not good English.

My mind is open for news in this collection's world, in these years have been converted decorations that before thought fakes ( for example dotted dk !! ) and so I would like analyse with you and the other friends characteristics of this cross.

thanks for more details but need measurements too of both sides. Weight normally for these multirivets types go around 65/66 gr., only Juncker go around 58 gr. Your cross, for its characteristics, must go to the way of Deschler's type , than near 65/66 (my 10 Deschler rivets is around 66 gr.) and not 58. This is not a good point for the cross, we will see measurements.

It's a 9 rivets, so must be an early cross. Officially we think only Deschler's firm was able to made first Dks but till today anybody can be sure of that. I think maybe is possible another firm was authorizated or he had a request to made DK, usually went in this direction.... maybe Godet firm?
Godet was very important in high decorations, strange he was not called for this decoration from the beginnen but only later. There is an unmarked example with 14 rivets with all characteristics of godet's DK, right weight and measurements, right wreath, right pin system, but till today collector's world officially does not recognize it. For me is a war time DK...time will give sooner or later the answer.

Well, by this way, wreath is really poor even if it's right more strict of the second models, I think would be minimum with the nice, important form, and gilded more well done.
Again, why this unknown firm does this strange hinge (it seams more like in ccc's then in EKI ) if in the beginnen must have all same protocol style? Personally your cross has not a bad material, cacth I like it, rivets are not bad done, material of silver and black star are nice. Unfortunately I don't like hinge, weight and wreath.

Unfortunately for me is a bit difficult to think it is a war time DK.

**IVAN** · 09-05-2017, 04:03 AM

please, can you do a close photo about red zone disk?

I think the 2 examples you posted in your last photo with little pic are from my DKs

**Dietrich Maerz** · 09-05-2017, 07:12 AM

Originally posted by IVAN View Post

Officially we think only Deschler's firm was able to made first Dks but till today anybody can be sure of that.

It is documented, that Deschler was the first manufacturer and got an initial order for the first 2000 pieces.

**IVAN** · 09-05-2017, 07:56 AM

Originally posted by Dietrich Maerz View Post

It is documented, that Deschler was the first manufacturer and got an initial order for the first 2000 pieces.

Hi dear Dietrich,
yes, sure you are right, but who knows that maybe, after that, was done immediately an order to Godet too and done in multirivets too?

Sure sooner or later received an order, Do you know if is documented the first official order to Godet firm? date? wich type? First Godet type was with 6 rivets? Personally I don't know......

Are you able to research it? You do very good researches and I would like to know it. It would be important to know, if the first order was when Deschler have beginnen to made with 6 rivets too, so we can immagine the first crosses by Godet was the 6 rivets....

**Dietrich Maerz** · 09-05-2017, 08:29 AM

I do not have such data and I doubt it will ever be known. It is not only Godet, it is also Juncker with the five rivets that also got an early order, but after Deschler. However, Deschler was not only the documented first supplier, but also the documented developer of the German Cross, meaning the transformation work from the design of Prof. Klein to the actual medal. Regarding their paperwork no other company was involved.

The problem we have here is that it is very unlikely that one of the big companies in Lüdenscheid got an order and up until today only one example is allegedly known. I also doubt that the PKZ would have awarded a "prototype".
From all other companies, even the early ones, we have multiple examples awarded and documented. No Lüdenscheid firm ever shows up in any early documentation regarding the German Cross, S&L only got their order in July 1944.

You make a very good point with the smooth-edged wreath. That type of wreath conforms with the later types regarding the issued manufacturing prescription (about mid 1942).

**PanzerElite** · 09-05-2017, 09:15 AM

Stefan, from the reverse of the example, from my opinion, i won't say it is fake!!! a DK with mirror back is from very initial production, Deschler, Juncker, it is the same features, and looks very natural, very nice. it could be an unknown maker, or repaired piece, who knows.
the offset wreath is common, i think you are well aware of, just surprised with the handwork is not like it should be the style of made-in-germany. but it always happened on the examples of Deschler, Juncker, Godet, but hardly on Zimmermann and Klein.

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