EK1 1939 without MM - Opinion???

[wschmidt]

Hello Guys,
One friend sent to me this EK1. I have doubt, is it a good EK1?
Regards,
Schmidt

[Peter Wiking]

Schmidt, I think you should walk away from this cross.

Peter

[boch_62]

IMO good W&L but with not original pin

Regards
Jarek

[wschmidt]

Isn't the pin original?????

[Dansson]

Looks like an authentic cross. I suspect it's a Juncker product, the hardware and especially the rough reverse in yellowish-alloy is commonly seen on Junckers. The pin is authentic, it's the pin of a Juncker cross.

It is well known that Juncker used a lot of Wächtler & Lange parts, in this case both core and frame.


Personally I see nothing wrong with it.

[Douglas 5]

Correct - nothing wrong with that cross .

Douglas

[AndyC]

Post pictures from the links for future reference



Andy

[AndyC]

2

[AndyC]

3

[AndyC]

4

[boch_62]

Looks like an authentic cross. I suspect it's a Juncker product, the hardware and especially the rough reverse in yellowish-alloy is commonly seen on Junckers. The pin is authentic, it's the pin of a Juncker cross.

It is well known that Juncker used a lot of Wächtler & Lange parts, in this case both core and frame.


Personally I see nothing wrong with it.

W&L cross with Juncker's pin is o.k. but Juncker's cross ... on what basis?
I'm not saying it's impossible, but what does it say? As well, only the pin can be replaced

Regards
Jarek

[Dansson]

W&L cross with Juncker's pin is o.k. but Juncker's cross ... on what basis?
I'm not saying it's impossible, but what does it say? As well, only the pin can be replaced

Regards
Jarek

No, pin is original to this one.
What I am basing my answer on? It's well known Juncker used both frames and cores of Wächtler & Lange, right? Even marked Juncker pieces can be found with Wächtler & Lange parts.

This cross has the front frame and core by Wächtler and lange, but the differences stop there.

• Wächtler & Lange have a smooth reverse surface, usually also treated. Juncker had not, Juncker usually have an alloy coloured surface that's way more rougher than W&L's.
  
• Junckers used also a very dark type of solder not encountered on many other EK's than Juncker. A very dark solder is used on this one that's commonly found in Juncker products.
  
• The pin is a Juncker pin, only used on Juncker products, and the catch is a round piece of wire which Juncker used, Wächtler & Lange used a flat type of wire.

Crosses are not only identified by frame and core, but from many other details as well. The details I mentioned above, compare them W&L EK1's and Juncker EK1's and you will notice that I have made valid points.

If my points are not enough, I'm armed with way more points

[boch_62]

No, pin is original to this one.
What I am basing my answer on? It's well known Juncker used both frames and cores of Wächtler & Lange, right? Even marked Juncker pieces can be found with Wächtler & Lange parts.

This cross has the front frame and core by Wächtler and lange, but the differences stop there.

• Wächtler & Lange have a smooth reverse surface, usually also treated. Juncker had not, Juncker usually have an alloy coloured surface that's way more rougher than W&L's.
  
• Junckers used also a very dark type of solder not encountered on many other EK's than Juncker. A very dark solder is used on this one that's commonly found in Juncker products.
  
• The pin is a Juncker pin, only used on Juncker products, and the catch is a round piece of wire which Juncker used, Wächtler & Lange used a flat type of wire.

Crosses are not only identified by frame and core, but from many other details as well. The details I mentioned above, compare them W&L EK1's and Juncker EK1's and you will notice that I have made valid points.

If my points are not enough, I'm armed with way more points

Thanks Daniel, generally I understand your arguments, although not everything is 100% correct for me.
Some things depend on the passage of time, patina... for example, solder color ...and Wachter & Lange also used the catch of a round piece of wire in their early, non-magnetic crosses.

I still have the last question whether this would be an early or late Juncker cross?

Jarek

[Dansson]

Thanks Daniel, generally I understand your arguments, although not everything is 100% correct for me.
Some things depend on the passage of time, patina... for example, solder color ...and Wachter & Lange also used the catch of a round piece of wire in their early, non-magnetic crosses.

I still have the last question whether this would be an early or late Juncker cross?

Jarek

Solder colour doesn't depend on time. The Juncker solder is a lot softer than the much harder W&L solder.

Where I would date the cross? Early.
Motive?
Juncker bought up AWS, and used the AWS frames in the so called "Juncker Schinkel". During World War 2, Juncker also made 1914 crosses with the AWS core inside it. Well, I've owned a few specimen of World War 2 made 1914 crosses by Juncker, both factory vaulted, both with AWS core, Juncker pin, Juncker catch, dark solder, a rough reverse surface... but with a W&L frame.
Due to regulations, factory vaulting on crosses was forbidden around march 1940, which makes any factory vaulted piece pre-April 1940.

As you should know Jarek, Juncker's later L/12 marked 1914 crosses with an LDO frame do as well have the AWS core in it. I haven't seen so far any marked 1914 for W&L or any 1914 made during World War 2 made by Wächtler & Lange.

None of the W&L framed crosses with AWS 1914 core had a W&L pin, W&L catch or smooth W&L finish. They had a Juncker pin, a rough Juncker finish, a Juncker catch and a core owned by Juncker.


There's no evidence W&L used Juncker setups or Juncker finishes on their own parts (never seen a Juncker framed cross with a W&L setup), but there is evidence which I have presented that Juncker used W&L cores and frames and are distinguished by the reverse hardware, finnish and setup.



I'm convinced this cross is made by Juncker.

[Douglas 5]

Smooth back Junckers :

Douglas