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**praubal** · 07-04-2017, 12:17 PM

Originally posted by Hauptmann109 View Post

So a lot of the flyboys and some others got the Knight's Cross before the German Cross in gold. I see that a lot got the German Cross in gold at a later date. How did this work, instead of getting the oak-leaves or if they already had the oak-leaves then the Swords they got the German Cross instead then went back to climbing the award ladder? Some didn't get the DK until years after their RK...

Then there's some who never got the DK even when holding the Swords....like Adolf Galland who got the diamonds in 1942...

It also seems that some of the pilots preferred to only wear their Spanish Cross if they had one instead of the German Cross....such as Walter Oesau, can't find any pictures of him with his DK. And Herbert Ihlefeld as well.

Some have said how ugly and heavy that award was...so can well believe it that some preferred not to wear it...or preferred the bullion version

**Dietrich Maerz** · 07-04-2017, 12:29 PM

Originally posted by praubal View Post

Some have said how ugly and heavy that award was...so can well believe it that some preferred not to wear it...or preferred the bullion version

Now that is - excuse me - nonsense. There was neither the mindset nor the regulations that one could refuse to wear the third highest order of the Third Reich on the basis of "I don't like the design!" One could also not refuse to wear an award and no soldier would have done so anyway. Maybe nowadays ....

The German Cross was for deeds that did not allow for the award of the Knight Cross (or higher which was nothing else as another Knights Cross, just in different form), but more than the EK1. There is no rule that says that a Knights Cross winner cannot be awarded the German Cross later on ( or the Honor Roll).

Every award was evaluated based on the deed, not on previous performance.

**Hauptmann109** · 07-04-2017, 03:27 PM

Originally posted by Dietrich Maerz View Post

The German Cross was for deeds that did not allow for the award of the Knight Cross (or higher which was nothing else as another Knights Cross, just in different form), but more than the EK1. There is no rule that says that a Knights Cross winner cannot be awarded the German Cross later on ( or the Honor Roll).

Every award was evaluated based on the deed, not on previous performance.

Yes, I understand this, but I am wondering how that went about, especially in Galland's case where he got the diamonds and never the DKiG yet others as named below, got their DKiG after their RK.

Also, the other 2 who did get their DKiG after their RK seemed to have never worn it. One might make the assumption that all the pictures of them are pre 1941, but sometimes they are wearing their fighter clasp, but no DKiG, just their Spanish Cross and then up to RK.

Maybe, I'm saying a heavy maybe, this was a way for them to show off that they got their RK early on? Kind of like, "I'm old school"

?

**Dietrich Maerz** · 07-04-2017, 03:55 PM

Again, each order or medal of the Third Reich was awarded based on merits or based on a very specific action, expressed in an award proposal which was initiated at the unit and went up the whole chain of command. At every step the proposal had to be commented (with yes or no and reasoning). Then it went to the department of Burgdorf where it was again judged. There are a lot of cases documented where a Knights Cross (or higher) was proposed but it was "down graded" to the German Cross or Honor Roll. Upgrade cases are also known. The absolute final decission was always with Hitler and he could also change the recommendation up or down.

So much for the process.

In the case of the soldiers you mentioned the simple answer is that the subsequent deeds or action performed warranted the higher grade of the Knights Cross (plus, in such a high visible case, a political factor also might have played into it).

That a German soldier, especially a Knights Cross winner, did not wear his German Cross in order to show that he was "old school" i.e. an early winner of the RK is in my humble opinion not believeable. It could very well be that for convenience reasons (aircraft, tank, ..) the German Cross was no worn in order not to damage the medal and that are the photos mentioned. But, again, a refusal to wear based on "how ugly" it presumably was, is not unthinkable.

The awarding of the German Cross after the Oakleaves for instance, was and is not a decline in the award ladder - it was an additional decoration. And a highly valued one at that, too!

**Erickn** · 07-04-2017, 04:45 PM

Herbert Ihlefeld

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**praubal** · 07-04-2017, 06:19 PM

Originally posted by Dietrich Maerz View Post

Now that is - excuse me - nonsense. There was neither the mindset nor the regulations that one could refuse to wear the third highest order of the Third Reich on the basis of "I don't like the design!" One could also not refuse to wear an award and no soldier would have done so anyway. Maybe nowadays ....

The German Cross was for deeds that did not allow for the award of the Knight Cross (or higher which was nothing else as another Knights Cross, just in different form), but more than the EK1. There is no rule that says that a Knights Cross winner cannot be awarded the German Cross later on ( or the Honor Roll).

Every award was evaluated based on the deed, not on previous performance.

It was refered to as the fried egg by some...not very flattering. Of course it's not a case of refusing...merely a case of not choosing to wear it....
Look at those who chose to wear some awards but not others.. Doenitz and his pilots....Rommel and his pilots...Dietrich and his vast choices...
I'm not saying they would refuse but there were some who would have chosen not to wear it....the large swastika would probably have had a too political overtone with some.

**Edward L. Hsiao** · 07-04-2017, 07:56 PM

Gentlemen,

There were quite a few soldiers of the Wehrmacht that were disappointed in getting the German Cross in Gold instead of the Knight's Cross. After all, these soldiers were recommended for the Knight's Cross. I know the Knight's Cross was nicknamed the "tin-tie". And those who were determined to get the Knight's Cross had a "sore throat". The German Cross in Gold was sometimes a downer for the German soldier.

Sincerely,

Edward L. Hsiao

**bobgee526** · 07-04-2017, 09:10 PM

Interesting. Ofw Hans Schoefbeck, a Luftwaffe transport pilot received his RK in 1943 just after Stalingrad. He received his DKiG in Jan 1945. I thought this unusual. Does anyone know if the "Award Proposals" mentioned by Dietrich exist anywhere? And if so, can they be obtainesd and how?
Thanks.....Bob

**Dietrich Maerz** · 07-05-2017, 07:28 AM

As far as I know they are (maybe not all) in existence, most likely in the Bundesarchiv. I show some examples in my book "The German Cross" in the chapter about award procedures. The process is no secret and good books show it in depth. Another good source might be the series "German Cross in Gold. Holders of the SS and Police" by Mark C. Yerger.

**Brian S** · 07-05-2017, 09:35 AM

Originally posted by Hauptmann109 View Post

It also seems that some of the pilots preferred to only wear their Spanish Cross if they had one instead of the German Cross....such as Walter Oesau, can't find any pictures of him with his DK. And Herbert Ihlefeld as well.

No they wore a Spain Cross.

**Gary B** · 07-05-2017, 10:11 AM

Originally posted by bobgee526 View Post

Interesting. Ofw Hans Schoefbeck, a Luftwaffe transport pilot received his RK in 1943 just after Stalingrad. He received his DKiG in Jan 1945. I thought this unusual. Does anyone know if the "Award Proposals" mentioned by Dietrich exist anywhere? And if so, can they be obtainesd and how?
Thanks.....Bob

The award proposals are available and I have offered a few on the e-stand over the years. Although, IMO, historically more important than the award document, these multi paged papers garner little interest/attention.

Gary B

**Hauptmann109** · 07-05-2017, 11:09 AM

Originally posted by Brian S View Post

No they wore a Spain Cross.

In English it is called the Spanish cross

**bobgee526** · 07-05-2017, 11:34 AM

Thanks Gary. What's the process for obtaining the "Award Proposals"? Regards......Bob

**Dietrich Maerz** · 07-05-2017, 12:19 PM

Originally posted by Hauptmann109 View Post

In English it is called the Spanish cross

The attached photo shows a Spanish Cross. What we discuss here is a Spain Cross, since it is a cross awarded for fighting in Spain (Spanienkreuz) and not a cross that is spanish (spanisches Kreuz). Just because somebody think it is right because the first to translate it did it so, it might still be wrong. It is also Adolf and not Adolph and it is Kriegsmarine and not Kreigsmarine, ...

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German Cross in Gold After Knight's Cross

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