Mother of KVKs Tool for making KVK dies

[tystgaard]

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[Douglas 5]

That is correct Gary B

Nicolai -- As pictures 30 to 34 show - the steel cylinder at the top is plated with a softer material . the steel is corroding under this layer and 'blisters' are bubbling/braking this soft surface .
You cannot use that die to stamp anything . The cleaning with steel wool shows that the top surface is very soft .
Putting a layer of " soft " material on top of hardened steel does not make sense !
The sample shown in post 27 is the real deal - just not finished yet. Early pieces were stamped out of copper and brass sheets . The early copper ones were brass plated .

Another copper base - reject - mis-aligned stamping sheet - missing upper arm tips .

Douglas

[tystgaard]

Rust

Well rust makes steel soft. Could be a ground dug item. Dont think its plated.
I find it hard to believe its fake. And if not a die tool.. what is it.?
Do you really believe its a modern fake?

BR
Nicolai

[Douglas 5]

Do not know what it is for .
It has all the sign of a plated surface ... rust blisters expanding the top surface . ... along the same lines as the ' running veining' on cores .

Douglas

[juoneen]

I worked in a machine shop where we made dies, and if this was a die to strike KVKs it would ge reversed in the bottom die and recessed,as the front.... and the top mating die would be also reversed and hollow with pins to mate it without moving , usually with several round springs around the pins to between the dies as a fixture block , also numbered by the factory for inventory for manufacturing...so as to spring open after each stamping, and may have been in multiple dies for stock that is annealed to be soft prior punch pressing material in sheets , prior to heat treating and soldering on of the top ring holders.
I am unsure what this was for, unless it is for stamping thin 1/2 sides for photo books or something like plaques....or possibly to just fool you to thinking you had a die half, but to me , is not a die for the KVK second class...press it on to clay and see for yourself unless this was made to make the dies by casting after stamping something else softer that was hardened after with this part for making limited production dies that made the medals but this part is not the die.I truly hope you don't have a lot invested in this item.
Do we have any tool and die makers here who might weigh in to give their opinions .

[Douglas 5]

Thanks for commenting Juoneen . I thought we had some more metal workers/ machinist in our group .

Douglas

[tystgaard]

Hi

No I have not much invested in it (Around 100 Euro). And the Danish medal collector that my friend bought it from probably even less. He talked about purchasing it from a man, that had some other die tools as well. He said the guy had if I remember correct- tools for iron crosses or possible also high end awards - I am not sure. The man did not want to sell the other tools. Next time I meet this collector I could ask him for more details. (I was with my friend, when he bought it, and he sold it to me for what he paid)

I dont know how this could be a fake. You would need old machinery and quite a few hours
work by a person with expert skills. Then make it rusty, and polish it- or as Douglas believes plating it. Then sell it cheap to a collector...

Yes could be for something else as a plaque or early post war production.
A prototype cross or something else. If an produced cross there most be a match with the same dot pattern.

About a number (If needed for production). There could be a number on it, that just no longer are very visible. It could also have been with ink or a label.

I am a bit surprised that there are so much confusion about how these medals
was made!!!

Dont misunderstand all opinions are valued, and I have not any illusions being an expert in this field..

Thanks
Nicolai

[tystgaard]

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[australia]

You would be surprised to see what lengths fakers go to fool people on some items . Your not the first and won't be the last .

[tystgaard]

paranoid

Or all the fakes finally made the collectors world
totally paranoid. Now there are only textbooks items
and fakes!

;-)

You would be surprised to see what lengths fakers go to fool people on some items . Your not the first and won't be the last .

[byterock]

You are getting confused between a 'Master Hub' and a master die. The 'Master hub' is a male that is used to make 'Master Dies' which are female.

So this could be a real 'Master Hub' Now if it is war time or some creation of S&L post war is anyones guess.

It looks like it was very over-used ad from my recollection a 'Master-Hub' was only good for 15 to 20 dies then it was trashed.

Remember this is very soft Iron that had the image lathed onto it and then heat treated to make it hard but it is usually quite brittle hence the short life span.

[Gary B]

In coin making, a master hub is used to make master dies. The master dies in turn are used to make working hubs. The working hubs are then used to make working dies. The larger the end piece (coin or medal) the less pieces that can be made by the working dies.

Gary B