any chance?

[juoneen]

Heres a KVK l that has the fluted screwback, but different than the fakes. I got it in a lot I found some time back...I know they say these were used on originals, but more often found with the other style than this one. there is no post on the 12 oclock arm, but not sure if they were ever made without? comments?












These were with the KVK and also a luft buckle also shown below.

[Eklipse]

Could you post an image of the reverse (without the clamshell)?

[juoneen]

here you are....like I said there is no post at the top, and the screwback was rusted tight when I bought the lot.....took a lot of coaxing to free it.





these two stick pins were also in the lot and the ammo pouch,,,,





also this cup


and this eagle and blue stick pin

[tystgaard]

Nice

Nice find. I do not know a lot about KVKs but think
it looks convincing. Very interesting. The SS medal
do from the pics not look like a accepted type!

BR
Nicolai

[Eklipse]

The nut soldered to the back of the KVK is not a Deumer one (there are two types from Deumer), so the clamshell is not from Deumer. Anyway other minor makers used this very same clamshell disc, possibly from the same manufacturer.
The better fake for the clamshell disc is from Floch, but in the fakes I know thre attached screw is wider and shorter.

[juoneen]

interestingly enough all the items came from the same person. I have sent photos to other friends who are also collectors with at least 50 years tenure as myself, and they have all stated the ss four year looks like a petz and lorenz original, although it doesn't have the ring soldered..
I will add it here also , as the first thing you expect on the waf is a negative comment, but the pin is not of the fake type, and the metal is not the usual type material used in fakes....the finish of type of paint has age, and has an interesting appearance like one wouild expect as the paint has not been repainted....the number 4, and other features are also different ....but i bought the pile as a lot from an antique dealer who it was all sold to , but the people who sold it to him knew nothing about the stuff . i also forgot to add the ICII from WW1, and other photos of the same medals in the lot...anyway here they are to look at, and the best thing is the whole lot was dirt cheap....and all together as sold , and the seller was not a collector. thanks for looking, and I have more shots if anyone needs to see any other photos .

[tystgaard]

Hi

Well some variants might be in a grey area.
As I understand only 2 variants are proven
original.

Here are mine P&L type. Don't think it looks
much like your variant.

BR
Nicolai

[tystgaard]

2

2

[juoneen]

I am aware of the accepted versions, but it seems petz and lorenz made a version that is only shown in copies of their factory inventory. The ring attached to the medal is round not champfered, and some times has a round ring for the ribbon. BUT, there were earlier versions and I am wondering if this may be in between since all the stuff was good in the pile....so here are some more shots to show the texture ofthe paint, as this medal has the appearance of age, and doesn't exibit the same features of the repros of this type.
Showing it to old time collectors gave me a surprise when the opinion was that it was original. Of course here with all the newer collectors who follow the leaders are not always right, but does warrant closer examination as we have no idea how many variations manufacturers made early on, but I did feel this medal was an interesting study....since the unusual has always intrigued me , and there is still much authors and experts alike do not know.
Here are some more closer photos of the textured paint that may have been been used prior to the stippled type finishes, so indulge me anyway and look at these photos .
ps. I have not weighed or measured this example to date.


















Here is a scan (not a very clear one) of a factory catalog from petz and lorenz of the type I feel this one is. I wondered if P&L had several dies that may have been used before things were standardized by Adolph? Somebody have a clearer shot of that manufacturers catalogue, or any other catalogues with other ss medals they made possibly never posted here(its a long shot I know)? Although some felt this could be a good one, I'm on the fence , and not sure , and knew it would not likely get a favorable review, but regardless , at least it has never been repainted or messed with and is as found. The repros also have a different type pin base , shorter and square. has anyone ever seen this type on any other original medals, or have any information about it? This one is here for future reference regardless of opinions today. (sometimes things change , somtimes not) Thanks for the replies any way, that's how we all learn .Tystgaard, your medal is a fine accepted example, thanks for posting.

[Thomas Durante]

I will add it here also , as the first thing you expect on the waf is a negative comment,

Well, we certainly appreciate you sticking with us despite our negativity.

The IAB is an original Rettenmaier, not sure on the rest of the items.

Tom

[TPK]

Hi, I like the items and agree with Tom on the IAB for sure. The only one I have a reserve on is the SS long service so that may need to get posted separately to get a more concrete repsonse. Thanks for showing. TPK

[Ian Hulley]

The only texture on the SS LS is in the paint

The other (common) awards look absolutely fine.

Ian

[hkusp40]

The only texture on the SS LS is in the paint

The other (common) awards look absolutely fine.

Ian

I agree. -Ger

[juoneen]

I also appreciate the indulgence to look closer at things like this.(the KVK screwback, and the 4 yr SS. (figured i'd show the lot since it was found that way)

Having found in the past if items in a lot with no owners or sellers knowing anything about what they are selling , the items and are found together with the majority of items good, chances are it all can be occasionally.

Originally the thread was started about the KVK and its fluted screwback, then got a little sidetracked by the other items with it.

I happened upon this lot one day purely by chance months ago, then figured for the great deal it was , I wasn't purchasing the pile for the KVK or the long service...as I had my own reservations , but felt as previously stated that these two items would be an interesting study.....then, with favorible response from other collector acquaintances who saw the strange ones, felt it was interesting enough to post regardless of verdict.

In some cases we just don't know for sure and I have jumped the gun being wrong on items that were different here myself, not denying that, and have learned a lot about the items that don't always fit in the box as they say.

Since the KVK fluted disc was not like the floch , and was rusted on tight, it appeared it had not been fooled with for quite a long time....then with the aged appearance of the long service and the textured paint, and a strange wear mark on the medal around the 3 oclock to 5 oclock area on the one side , like it had been rubbing against something, among other things like the pin, anybody here would have done the same.

The idea of posting the long service with weights and measurements and better photos will be in order, and I will do that when I can get to where I have better lighting to show its details clearer.

The KVK I screwback , knowing they did use this type on some originals but less often encountered , had me wondering IF this example could be original...

Nobody could answer if any KVK I's were ever awarded without the post at the top to keep the cross from turning, but I guessed, anything was possible.

Recalling a photo of Hitler in the early years wearing an ICI that had turned 45degrees off center while he was wearing it while public speaking , that in itself made me think ...WHO knows? but that one may have been a screwback , as it didnt seem to me a pinned on version or even if a single loop sewn to a tunic had been applied wouldnt allow any cross to turn that much .

[tystgaard]

:-)

You could try to start a thread for the SS 4 year in the correct forum
for it. Maybe some one else knows this variant.

My personal guess would be a early post war product. From Souval or S&L.
But just a guess. If you believe it's could be original period, it's fine with me:-)

BR
Nicolai