Did Deumer make the Godet German Cross?

[streptile]

In my opinion the "Gebr. Godet" German Cross was made by Wilhelm Deumer.

I have believed this to be true for a couple years and my idea is based on a few things:

1. Deumer and Gebr. Godet had a working relationship, with Wolf Conze, owner of Wilhelm Deumer, owning a significant share of Gebr. Godet.
2. Gebr. Godet did not in my opinion make most (or any) of their famous decorations, including the entire Iron Cross series, the German Eagle Order, and the Red Cross Decorations.
3. Gebr. Godet's suppliers can often be determined by comparing the 21 or L/50 marks to the marks of the suppliers. the [21] mark of the DK looks like Deumer's L/11 or [L/11] mark.
4. The Gebr. Godet DK construciton (e.g. rivets) is reminiscent of Deumer's construction techniques.

Photo comparisons to follow in subsequent posts.

[Andreas Klein]

In my opinion the "Gebr. Godet" German Cross was made by Wilhelm Deumer.

I have believed this to be true for a couple years and my idea is based on a few things:

1. Deumer and Gebr. Godet had a working relationship, with Wolf Conze, owner of Wilhelm Deumer, owning a significant share of Gebr. Godet.
2. Gebr. Godet did not in my opinion make most (or any) of their famous decorations, including the entire Iron Cross series, the German Eagle Order, and the Red Cross Decorations.
3. Gebr. Godet's suppliers can often be determined by comparing the 21 or L/50 marks to the marks of the suppliers. the [21] mark of the DK looks like Deumer's L/11 or [L/11] mark.
4. The Gebr. Godet DK construciton (e.g. rivets) is reminiscent of Deumer's construction techniques.

Photo comparisons to follow in subsequent posts.

1. Having the same share holder doesn't mean that you work together.
2. Needs no comment.
3. The used L/11, 21, L/50 are typical german numbers. While Deumer seems to love non serif numbers Godet used numbers with serif, so they look clearly different.
4. The Godet and Deumer construction is based on the official construction rule - nothing less and nothing more.

Just my 2 cents ....

[streptile]

Thank you Andreas for replying before I was finished posting.

I will continue anyway.

Here you can see that Gebr. Godet's marks closely follow the pattern of the supplier.

When the oaks are made by Zimmermann, the marks look like Zimmermann's marks:



When a Godet Iron Cross is made by Mayer, the entire cross is identical to a Mayer, the L/50 is identical to Mayer's L/18.

But when it's made by Zimmermann, the entire cross is identical to a Zimmermann, and the L/50 looks like Zimmermann's L/52:


© 5tefan

Here we see the same pattern. Godet's [21] mark on the DKIG is identical to Deumer's [L/11] mark:

Marks.jpg

And here we can see the same rivets used for the Godet DK and the Deumer Luftwaffe Badge:

Rivets.jpg

PS: Thanks Tom Durante and Dietrich Maerz for the photos.

[streptile]

In the case of the Iron Cross, we can clearly see that, when Godet's crosses come from Zimmermann, they are identical to Zimmermanns in every way, including finish and marks.

When they come from Mayer, they are identical to Mayers in every way, including finish and marks.

The German Eagle Order and the Red Cross Decorations are a different story, since only Godet supplied these, not Zimmermann. So a Godet Red Cross Decoration (for example) can not be compared to a Zimmermann Red Cross Decoration, since the latter does not technically exist.

But nevertheless, Godet's German Eagle Orders and Red Cross Decorations were found (burned or cut, but finished) in the Zimmermann Factory Fire lots. The same is true of Godet Oakleaves, finished, marked for Godet, and cut in half as a reject: found in the Zimmermann Factory Fire lots. Same with "Gebr. Godet" buttonhole decorations. You can see all these here.

So the DK is a similar story to the German Eagle Order and the Red Cross Decorations. Deumer did not have a license to supply it. Godet did.

Godet commissioned these pieces from Deumer, took delivery of them finished and marked, the same way they did with their Iron Crosses (Zimmerman and Mayer), and their German Eagle Order and Red Cross Decorations (Zimmermann).

That's my theory.

Happy to hear discussion.

[streptile]

So who made this?

In my opinion it was Wilhelm Deumer.


.

[Leroy]

I thought I saw something earlier here about licensing for the DK. Were not Deumer, Godet and Zimmermann all "fully licensed" by the PKZ? (Doesn't mean that you got the order, just that you were "in the running".) On another topic, is it sure that Zimmermann made the Godet RK's (and not Deumer)?

[streptile]

I thought I saw something earlier here about licensing for the DK. Were not Deumer, Godet and Zimmermann all "fully licensed" by the PKZ?

Perhaps. But there are no Deumer DKs to compare to, which was simply my point.

On another topic, is it sure that Zimmermann made the Godet RK's (and not Deumer)?

I'd love to see some evidence that anyone other than Zimmermann made the Godet RK. Anyone... even Godet. But I have yet to see anything convincing.

I find it super unlikely that Deumer made the Godet RK given the Zimmermann-type marks on it but I'm always open to be convinced.

[fabri-online]

Thanks Trevor for share this interesting study.
Personally I have not an idea yet...
A thought about the 21 stamp position, looks to me that Deumer did not use to mark their Pins on the back side.

[Dietrich Maerz]

1. The Godet and Deumer construction is based on the official construction rule - nothing less and nothing more.

Just my 2 cents ....

Welcome back from the "dead"!

That statement above is not true. It is true that there was a design regulation, but it was not adhered to. Deschler had first six then four rivets, Juncker has five and Godet had six. The rivets were different, too. Even between Zimmermann and Klein.
That regulation didn't have any impact.

I have to look into Trevor's suggestion and find it interesting. Only because of the general "manufacturing history" which gives the theory some solid base for discussion.

[Dietrich Maerz]

On another topic, is it sure that Zimmermann made the Godet RK's (and not Deumer)?

Godet RKs and Zimmermann RKs are made with the same die. So either Zimmermann delivered Godet or vice versa. Or both got the cross from a third party. I don't think that third party was Deumer.
However, in the early days Godet and Deumer were on the supplier list to the PKZ, Zimmermann was not.

[Leroy]

I'd love to see some evidence that anyone other than Zimmermann made the Godet RK. Anyone... even Godet. But I have yet to see anything convincing.

I find it super unlikely that Deumer made the Godet RK given the Zimmermann-type marks on it but I'm always open to be convinced.

Godet RKs and Zimmermann RKs are made with the same die. So either Zimmermann delivered Godet or vice versa. Or both got the cross from a third party. I don't think that third party was Deumer.
However, in the early days Godet and Deumer were on the supplier list to the PKZ, Zimmermann was not.

What significance do each of you place on the photos from another forum showing Deumer workers assembling an RK (which is at least identifiable as NOT the 3/4 ring - although Deumer could have made that, too) and the presence in the Lüdenscheid town museum of a "Zimmermann" cross (totally unmarked) which is said by it to have been made by Deumer?

Very interesting speculation.

[chrisje110]

Does anyone here have pictures of the cross in the Lüdenscheid town museum ? Would be interesting to see

[Leroy]

Does anyone here have pictures of the cross in the Lüdenscheid town museum ? Would be interesting to see

You can see it here: http://www.germancombatawards.com/at...hmentid=107523

[Andreas Klein]

What significance do each of you place on the photos from another forum showing Deumer workers assembling an RK.

Hello Gentry,

i'm not sure for 100% but i think the photos of the workers are postwar and show a 57 cross production. I think Dietrich was involved in that subject more and can give us more informations on that.

[streptile]

What significance do each of you place on the photos from another forum showing Deumer workers assembling an RK (which is at least identifiable as NOT the 3/4 ring - although Deumer could have made that, too) and the presence in the Lüdenscheid town museum of a "Zimmermann" cross (totally unmarked) which is said by it to have been made by Deumer?

The biggest problem with the idea that Deumer made the Godet RK is the design. The shape of the frame and the design of the date numerals on the Godet RK are totally consistent within the entire Godet EK family. Even the design of the beading on the RK is the same as the lower grades. So whoever designed the lower classes also designed the RK. That much is clear to me.

Deumer has thin, modern date numerals compared to Godet's stocky classic date design. Deumer uses thin, flared cross arms, while Godet has an angular, geometric frame shape. Deumer uses wide, flat beading -- very stylized -- while Godet uses some of the tightest beading of the 1939 era.

Literally, I can think of no two EK makers more aesthetically dissimilar than Godet and Deumer, and that fact alone makes is virtually impossible for me to imagine that Deumer had a hand in designing or building the Godet RK.