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RK case paranoia?

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    RK case paranoia?










    Let me preface this by saying that I'm not indulging in dealer-bashing here. Or singling out any dealers for scrutiny. Which is why no dealers' names are mentioned.

    I was talking with a collector friend here in Paris the other day. We were comparing Ritterkreuz cases. His case was sourced in Germany. So was mine. Mine came from a wellknown dealer through an intermediary. Bought through the same intermediary as mine, his case may have come from the same dealer. It’s the one in the pictures.

    The extent of wear and tear aside, our two cases are identical. They’re the classic ‘square corner’ type with magnetic press studs. A few days ago, my friend had called a German dealer about a 1957 pattern RK. This ’57 RK was contained in a very new-looking 1939 pattern case. Black velour lining, etc. The dealer’s assistant had answered the phone and, at the request of my friend, checked to see if the press stud was magnetic, which it was. A seed of doubt was sowed in my friend’s mind. There are, after all, highly convincing fakes of RK cases and RK Oakleaves cases in circulation. They are not complicated items to make. His doubts increased when he called the dealer back. He asked the differences between 1939 and 1957 pattern RK cases and was told that they were as different as day and night. However, the case containing the 1957 RK was, to all intents and purposes, identical in construction and colour scheme etc to our 1939 pattern cases, although it looked brand-new.

    My friend then asked about the magnetic press stud on the case containing the 1957 RK and was told by the dealer that it was definitely non-magnetic, which is strange as the dealer’s assistant had just tested the press stud with a magnet and pronounced it magnetic.

    Now…this all seems a bit odd. I have looked at the images of the case containing the 1957 RK and it sure looks like an as-new example of the 1939 pattern RK cases owned by my friend and myself. Thinking about it, I have to say that all empty RK cases I have seen on the market, particularly offered by German dealers, are identical to mine. I have never seen an empty ‘round corner’ case for sale. These only seem to crop up with RKs inside them. And another thing that occurred to us: with so many uncased RKs on the market, WHY would a dealer sell an empty RK case in the first place? Or, more to the point, why would a dealer sell such cases through ‘civilian’ middlemen, as it were?

    Did the dealer offering the 1957 RK slip up in showing it in an un-aged fake case of the same type sold – suitably aged – to collectors through the proverbial back door? Or did his assistant simply get it wrong? Or are these guys sliding fake RK cases onto the market through ‘runners’ in order to protect their spotless Honest John reputations, one of the oldest dealers' ploys in the book?

    Or perhaps we're just paranoid…

    Comments?

    Prosper Keating

    [ 06 November 2001: Message edited by: Prosper Keating]

    [ 07 November 2001: Message edited by: Prosper Keating ]

    #2
    Hello Prosper,

    Most of the 1957 cases and post-war made cases I have seen have flat bottoms and do not have the beveled edges. Bar none, all the post war cases I have examined glow under blacklight on the silk, hinge silk and the paper liner around the black velour. it is not Impossible for the early 1957 KC's to have been offered in original boxes, if Steinhauer had them laying around. I could sure use a few original cases for several unissued KC's I have.
    Bob Hritz
    In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king.

    Duct tape can't fix stupid, but it can muffle the sound.

    Comment


      #3
      Many years ago I bought an RK from a reputable dealer in the UK in its 'original' case.
      I always like to get a second opinion on an award/badge if I spend alot on money on it and sent the RK off to another dealer who OK'd the RK but said the case was crap.
      The second dealer knew of the cases which were I was told made in Birmingham England by some guy, and they do look very good.
      I got the money back for the case but kept the RK.
      I would post some pictures of it if I knew how,or if anyone wants a picture I can email them.
      As Prosper suggests is it a case of reputable dealers 'fencing' dodgy cases with original RK's?
      Allan
      Looking for information on RKT KARL HUBER
      Stoßtruppführer AufKlAbt 20 (mot.)

      'Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it'

      Comment


        #4
        Allan,

        Email me a picture and I'll post it for you.

        Comment


          #5
          Pretty well any case you need can be obtained 'new' and in many cases the tooling for the parts/fittings are the original tools. Some parts are made in Germany.

          Simple boxes like SS medal boxes to elaborate multi-badge leather covered cases are available. I'm sure they will convince many people with some aging and fixing the 'Glow'.

          I've looked at the site a few times for this company and the stock changes, the site is at Repro Cases ( I bet they get a rush of orders now, watch out for the mint in mint case ads!) It's best to be informed and maybe interesting to have one or deconstruct/learn about, but they are not that cheap. I wish reproducers would ID items as reproduction like stamp 'Reproduction' in the base. Then again you would have a guy that sells repro's asking for a 'no stamp' Special Orderbatch. Only thing is to keep up to date.

          I bought an SS case to keep a medal in as I got tired of looking around for an original. It's really well constructed an unless one is very familiar with original cases you would be looking at it a few times to decide whether it's hokey or not.

          Knowing you purchased a repro it's easy to justify taking it apart to learn about it, not so easy to do if you just spent say $500 or more on a case thinking it's real when it may only be an aged and de-glowed item!

          Steve

          [ 06 November 2001: Message edited by: 007 ]

          Comment


            #6
            I have two 1957 RK cases and both have magnetic press studs, but otherwise they are quite dissimilar from the pictured example and I don't think anyone could mistake them for 1939 cases.
            George
            George

            Comment


              #7
              Hello,


              Very interesting topic , can you post weights of this case prosper ?

              It is possible in my opinion as Bob says that early 1957 KC's where supplied in original cases, they sure did use original ribbon's in my opinion .

              FRiendly Greetings,
              my collectionfield : German glider pilots


              http://users.skynet.be/lw-glider/

              Comment


                #8
                Hello Prosper.
                The pictured case was bought of me for aprox 2000 DM / around 900+- US.And it came with a lifelong guarantee of authenticity as usual for any piece more expensive than 500 DM /aprox 245 US.Do you have still have this expertise,if not I would be pleased to issue you a new one.Yes,I was called by a french collector who asked me several things about the KC 1957 set I offered on friday,but it was sold at that time already.I think he asked me for the center of the KC if magnetic or not and I told him it was not magnetic.he asked me also if the "1939" and "1957" cases look the same/or are they identical.I have told him that they indeed look the same if he steps 4 meters back.But in direct comparisson there is absolutly no way an even slightly educated collector can mistake a 57 for a 39.Also KC cases come with "square" and "round" corners.You say you have only seen them with a KC inside which is good for the one who has a cased one,but not good for someone who looks for one.Why should a dealer sell an emty case or why shall he sell a single ribbon or a single outer cartonage ? Because it#s a collector item on it's own and also a sought after addition to ones cross or badge.Why Detlev Niemann has sold a single case I can tell you easily,because I sell everything that comes in during the week on the next available friday as there is always someone who needs a single case.I'm sure you follow my updates and will find small mistakes or even a misdescribed item occasionally or even as you emntion the "WH" flak badge which I made a mistake.So what ? We are only humans and have to try every day our best.I'm convinced you have a proper job and have to work hard every day and your boss will not allow you to relax in a hammock.And I don't mind if you speak free and honest and mention my name if you speak about my pieces.We are here at a forum to share opinions and to learn and though I'm a fulltime dealer I also collect and have absolutly no problems to discuss my own items.So in the future I don't mind if you speak/write about my business/items.Serious,constructive critic,comments are always welcome and is what is of interest to anyone else.
                regards
                detlev

                Comment


                  #9
                  Detlev,

                  I should not have made that reference to you in this thread - the WH Wien reference - and I apologise unconditionally for doing so. You will see that I have erased the reference. On reflection, it was unfair of me and unjustified. I hope that this sets things straight. As you say, we all make mistakes.

                  As far as my RK case is concerned, I believe it to be absolutely original and now that I know it was originally sold by you with a certificate of authenticity, that makes me feel better. No…I didn't get the certificate when I bought it but that's OK.

                  As you say, this is an open forum and it is necessary to pose questions from time to time, even if those questions are based on little more than paranoia! Better to be a bit paranoid than left holding a clever fake! Especially as some of the new fakes of cases are very clever indeed.

                  Prosper Keating

                  Comment


                    #10
                    OK, I have the pictures of the reproduction case Allan mentioned above. here we go:

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Repro Case:

                      The pics are a bit big... but nice detail.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Repro Case: Last two


                        Comment

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