Factory Vaulted 1939 EK1s

[Darrell]

Like I mentioned above ... this cross wasnt mine .. but I'm looking at this thing trying to determine what maker it was .... it looks like a Zimmerman (by the pin / hinge / catch assy) and possibly L/52?

[Rich G]

Yes, looks like an L/52

[Colorado]

You saw the front of mine, here is the back. The vaulting is not much, but there is no lines from bending and you can see from the obverse that it is not separated on the rim.

[VonLuger]

I have a factory vaulted L54(in rectangle box and no(/)) screwback with LDO case, It has no visable bend marks, so I must also agree that a visable bend on cross are not factory done...first ones shown in thread done by hand or piece of equipment as simple as a piece of square metal pole in the field...
<!--StartFragment --> For contrast here's a favorite post of mine of an example done by hand-notice the front and back http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...+vaulted+cross
just shows with a good imagination you could figure many ways to vault a cross-and proven factory done examples just don't have visible bend marks...

[bwanek1]

I have a factory vaulted L54(in rectangle box and no(/)) screwback with LDO case, It has no visable bend marks, so I must also agree that a visable bend on cross are not factory done...first ones shown in thread done by hand or piece of equipment as simple as a piece of square metal pole in the field...
<!--StartFragment -->For contrast here's a favorite post of mine of an example done by hand-notice the front and back http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...+vaulted+cross
just shows with a good imagination you could figure many ways to vault a cross-and proven factory done examples just don't have visible bend marks...

Jeff,

I mean no disrespect and it is not my intent to single you out, because your comments are not dissimilar to those of others within this thread, but you have no basis to draw the conclusion you did. I started this thread acknowledging that the better factory-vaulted crosses have no visible bends. That was never in dispute. However, to say that, because you have one without bends, that you have conclusive evidence that all factory-produced vaulted crosses were made the same way is illogical. That is the same as saying that if you have one cross from one manufacturer with a flat pin that, not only were all crosses ever produced by that manufacturer made using the same pin throughout all years of production, but that all crosses ever produced by any manufacturer had the same style of pin.

The discovery of vaulted crosses without visible bends only proves their own existence; it does not disprove the existence of original vaulted crosses made by other means which left visible bends. Certainly different manufacturers experimented with different methods of production at various times as means of simplifying production to save money, manpower, or material. Previously uncataloged variations, such as hollow cores, have been documented and others continue to be documented.

All of that being said, I do not argue that the cross I presented was factory vaulted. I have already stated that I believe it was vaulted by a jeweler or retailer by some mechanical means in his shop. I reiterate that the location of these unusual bend marks could not have been produced without a mechanical device. I am, by profession, an engineer in the aerospace industry who specializes in the production of precision aircraft components by various means, including bending and forming. I have consulted with my colleagues on this matter and we are in unanimous agreement that the location and physical characteristics of these bends could only have resulted from uniform application of force against all four arms of the cross simultaneously. Such could not have been done "in the field" using a "square metal pole" as you suggest. Furthermore, there is no reason for someone "in the field" to have attempted such a thing even if it were possible, when they could have simply bent each arm individually against a firm surface as most anyone would do.

I continue my assertion that this cross displays unique characteristics which point only to the possibility of a mechanical vaulting mechanism, which would likely have been employed by a jeweler.

Respectfully,
Brad

[Mark S.]

I have had lingering questions regarding vaulted cross for years, perhaps I can add them to this discussion.

I think we can agree that the silver alloy on the frame is much softer that the cast iron center, so how would one bend the arms without causing damage to the softer frame? Wood with leather in some sort of dolly?

Were these vaulted before the pin and catch were attached? Were the parts vaulted seperately and then put together? I could see some type of press apperatus developed for this, but it would seem to me that hard to do with the hardware attached.

I have always wondered what kind of leverage you would need to bend 2 inches worth of cast iron cross, and then do it to all 4 arms in identical fashion. Laying it flat on a table edge and bearing down on it might do the trick, but how would you be able to get each arm exactly the same?

It is obvious that the arms would want to bend at the area with the least amount of resistance, which would be where they meet at the center, but that would produce arms with varying degrees of angle from the center, and quire likely, twist. It would take an entirely new process to get a soft curve to the arms, if it would be possible at all.

If these were done by hand (and I am not talking about field made) it would seem to me that the area of the bend would have the characteristics of work hardening from the disturbance of the molecules in the iron. When steel alloys are cold worked, it would generate heat in the bend, resulting in a work hardened area that presumably would adversly affect the lacquer paint work on the cast iron core due to accelerated oxidation of the iron in those areas. I am not saying that it has to, but I would expect to see some type of paint deteriation in at least some instances of what we call "hand worked".

The only way I could see this being avoided is if the center was manipuated while it was still in the production stages (possibly before refinishing) and before assembly. The center piece put into a press and convexed, and then added to an already convexed frame done in the same fashion, then soldered together. It would seem to be that the arms would possibly still bend first at the the thinnest area (resulting in the boxed center) and then "roll" out to the arms, resulting in a uniformly valuted cross, but still with a flat center.

In my mind there could be several different types of vaulted crosses:

1) Hand done in the field, bent around something to get that "look". Of course, this would have the frame lifting up at the center, and quite possibly damage to the reverse.

2) Re-worked by a professional to an already made cross. Similiar to above, but done with care to avoid damage. Still these would most likely have soft bends starting at the narrowest point of the arms, (i.e.boxed "puckered" center), but not as noticeable. Any frame damage would most likely be repaired before delivery.

3) Made to order from existing stock of regular crosses using some type of dolly or jig before assembly. Smooth bends of equal measure, most likely still with the pucker in the center.

4) Made by design, cast in vaulted form from the beginning. Unknown if this type of manufacturing would result in a smooth transition through the center or not. Of course the center core might have been made vaulted, but that wouldnt necessarily mean the frame was, they could have been made to fit. I dont suppose the soft frame would be too hard to stretch around the center core and soldered under pressure.

Anyway, just thinking out loud..

[atcase]

Hi To all,

very good thread i can not post links but you may want to see an earlier thread i posted quite recently titled `single piece 1st class convexed` there are some picture`s for you to draw conclusions but here are some for your digestion.
Ashley

[atcase]

rev

[atcase]

side view

[atcase]

3/4 view
as you can see (i hope) this item is substancially solid ( i did not want to use the word `thick` )

hopefully al views will be aired
Ashley