Spanienkreuz Spanish Cross original or fake???

[chrisje110]

I have read story's about a supposed huge find of numbered Assault badges/PAB's in the former Gustav Brehmer factory in the postwar period. These where impounded by the Stasi. I think the same happend to the items in the museum Dietrich talks about..

Regarding museums, could any museum in wartime Germany just put a request in to have a KC, German cross or whatever they wanted for display ? And if so did alot of museums did this ?

Very interesting topic !

[Brian S]

For me unless date pushed to 1940 I have no faith in numbered SKs. I do not see that happening.

[Dietrich Maerz]

...

[Brian S]

Key word "reportedly"

Key question did vet replace postwar?

As you say caution.

[Dietrich Maerz]

It would be unethical to suppress information that is availabe but goes against other known facts or one's own believe. I do not see any harm to report it and let the collector make up his mind on his own. Especially with Steinhauer & Lück.

[Brian S]

Exactly. Buyer beware.

[kraut72]

Well, let's start at begging, because of the advice, 2x36 items (72) so not 25. Dr. Sallay told you clearly what's up with this story. Unfortunately it's not our problem that you couldn't understand that and you rolled up his words. Guess why he doesn't want to keep the connection with you?
Neither me nor Dr.Sallay not accpet the double standard. The theory set up by you accepted or not it's totally indifferent to me. In the Museum who knows this story they are just smiles on the 1942&1943 theory, and not just Kraut say that
Furthermore, I recommend before you claim something about an unknown country's unknown Museum do your research.

We had a "row on these waters" already long before you even found your paper you are no basing your very premature and wrong thesis on. So let me clarify for the benefit of the readers who do not know why you state what you state. It always helps to show where an argument, even if wrong, comes from.

In May 1942 the PKZ sent a bunch (total of 25 items) of medals to the Hungarian Honved Museum. The list starts with the EK2 2. Class and ends with the German Merit Medal with Swords. Each item was supplied twice, including the Grand Cross, the Diamonds to the Knights Cross (with the remark that the Diamonds are not real), both grades of the German Cross and even a German Cross in Gold with Diamonds (also not real stones). The whole setup of the KVK including the Knights Crosses was also on the list. Basically all the important orders and medals handled by the PKZ.

Kraut now found that the one remaining EK2 is marked with "132" (and evidently some other badges are also stamped with a PKZ number, such as the WB ). I established contact with the museum and was advised by an official that there is no solid chain of posession of the medals, that the second EK2 is missing and - after explaining the reason for my inquiry - that there is no way that this EK2 can be used to fix a date for the introduction of the PKZ because of the uncertainty between 1942 and 2016. A solid statement from the source which Kraut refuses to accept.

Apart from this there is a ton of other evidence excluding a date of May 1942 as a date when the PKZ numbers were already in existence, the East Medal and the Medal for Eastern People being the most convincing regarding a date past July 1942.


Also, the PKZ number 132 is one of the very last ones and Franz Reischauer is only known as a maker of the EK2. If one would believe that this EK2 was initially part of the shipment (as Kraut does) one also has to believe that some time before that the PKZ list was nearly complete or complete. Considering the time to produce the medal after receiving the contract and all the other delays would put the date in maybe late 1941/early 1942 for the nearly full development of the list.
However, at that time big companies like Deschler, Deumer, Juncker, ... did not mark their products with the number, but Franz Reischauer did?

Here is what most likely happened: the whole set of medals did not make it untouched through the last days of the war and also not through the Communist era (I really would like to know where the Knights Crosses are, the two Grand Crosses, the German Crosses , ...the Oaks, the Swords, ...). After the fall of the SU the museum was rebuild or restocked or whatever and a "132" EK2 was aquired to fill one of the gaps. The same with the WB and maybe other items.

To use this one EK2 as a solid argument for this topic is not very scientific, the more so when even the gentleman of the museum says so. Not even considering all the other facts.

I am 100% with my friend Gentry on this. It does not matter when it was as long as it is (fairly) accurate. At this point in time we have only cirumstantial evidence in form of the actual medals and the introduction dates of some of them (plus the word of Bowen and Preuss). For me it is logical that if these medals were not marked in the beginning but later on that the numbering system was not in place at the time of introduction.
If one starts to look really deep into the list a certain picture of an evolution evolves and it becomes clear that the list grew as a resonse to the demand of medals, especially the KVK 2. Class and the EK 2.Class. That demand was not in existence by the end of 1941 and there was no need to have at least 132 companies. The more so when a list of suppliers to the PKZ, dated end of September 41, shows only 88 companies - Reischauer not being on the list.

Research is a holistic process and for a correct picture all pieces must fit the puzzle. If one piece doesn't fit it is adviseable to ask why and not - as Kraut does for whatever reason - throw all the previously assembled pieces of facts out of the window.

[Leroy]

We know, based on its last catalog (and exhibition photos), published coinciding with the date of the LDO initialization in March, 1941, that S&L was already manufacturing and offering for sale SK's. What it may have provided to the PKZ, and why, before and especially after that date is simply unknown to us so far, as is its "in-house" criteria for using pins pre-marked with "4". When I posted these photos of a vet-obtained Bronze w/swords, with only the "4" marking, even our friend 'Legion Condor' said that its construction and appearance was completely correct for wartime production and did not match postwar pieces made by S&L. The piece, he thought, was perhaps missed in the "L/16" marking process, perhaps intended for window display or had some other unknown explanation. Postwar pieces with just the "4" have, in his experience:

1.) An upright hinge
2.) Finish that is not as good as wartime pieces; and
3.) Almost always the "head error"

It is, as said, a collector's judgment call (i.e. opinion). I like it (and so does everyone else who has seen it "in hand"). After all these years, S&L is simply not the constant undetectable boogeyman for everything to me (at least for pieces I have an interest in) although I, too, certainly recommend a high degree of caution.

[Dietrich Maerz]

Well, let's start at begging, because of the advice, 2x36 items (72) so not 25. Dr. Sallay told you clearly what's up with this story. Unfortunately it's not our problem that you couldn't understand that and you rolled up his words. Guess why he doesn't want to keep the connection with you?
Neither me nor Dr.Sallay not accpet the double standard. The theory set up by you accepted or not it's totally indifferent to me. In the Museum who knows this story they are just smiles on the 1942&1943 theory, and not just Kraut say that.

And it is certainly not my problem that you don't understand simple things and that all you do is throw around some strange accusations, but it is disturbing. I have Dr. Sallay's emails and that is enough for me. I did my due dilligence. You have to learn to keep your stories straight, though. On 8-24-2015 you wrote:

"He wrote to you that He consider with responsibility for the group ('42 May) since He works there,1999-2000.BUT the Museum's inventory diary, Inventory and Receipts is precise!"

I am sorry that I stated 25 instead of 36 - I got only the first page of the letter from the PKZ. Since all in the foreign museum in a foreign country are all so full of joy and laughter about my theories, I kindly ask you to provide some facts (as I already kindly asked one year ago):
How about the inventory numbers of all the 36 items and a scan of the original inventory book when they were logged in. As you know, museums tag items with a number, even in Hungary. How about some nice photos of the other items, such as the two Grand Crosses, the two German Crosses with Diamonds, the Swords, the Oaks, ... with the original inventory numbers, of course. With your inside into the museum it is a piece of cake to get photos I am sure. And while you are there, please extend my apologies to Dr. Sallay. Evidently I made a mistake when I took the content of his email as his real opinion. I also have not heard that he doesn't speak or write to me anymore. Please ask him to tell me in an email why, would you?
And while you are at this topic, why don't you explain to me and other interesting parties why all the other arguments I made are no longer valid. I think it would help your "theory" if you would offer some facts and not just stories of misunderstandings, joy, and laughter.

Furthermore, I recommend before you claim something about an unknown country's unknown Museum do your research.

I wanted to ignore this sentence, but it is not possible. Sorry, but that is just plain stupid! You started that whole topic of the one EK2 marked "132" and so far you have failed to provide ANY prove at all. And that is exacly what Dr. Sallay wrote to me and you know it!

[Norm F]

We know, based on its last catalog (and exhibition photos), published coinciding with the date of the LDO initialization in March, 1941, that S&L was already manufacturing and offering for sale SK's. What it may have provided to the PKZ, and why, before and especially after that date is simply unknown to us so far, as is its "in-house" criteria for using pins pre-marked with "4".

It's safe to say that S&L's use of "4"-marked pin stock was not limited to awards mandated by the PK. Even though there was no requirement for PK numbers on humble KM war badges and almost all are unmarked (or LDO marked for private market), there are occasional S&L Destroyers which were assembled with the same 4-marked pin stock from their EK1 and KVK1 manufacturing lines.

Although the markings are completely superfluous for a KM badge, these are nevertheless assumed to be wartime assembly (although no way of proving that really), so it just appears that S&L were a bit cavalier in their choice of components during assembly.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Leroy]

I have often wondered if S&L was both cavalier and tight-fisted, had over-ordered a bunch of pins pre-stamped "4" when they were first assigned that number and then used them up on anything they would work for rather than going to the expense of buying others. We see SK's marked with both "4" on the pin and "L/16" on the body, almost as an afterthought. The management had a reputation of being difficult to deal with, which I interpret as being both cheap and overly profit-hungry. Their catalog-listed RK was twice as expensive as the one advertised in Deumer's catalog. Who knows what really happened?

[George L]

Caution is right when it comes to S&L! The pin on this doesn't match the last SK posted, nor does it make any sense on why they'd even mark these 57's.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=499529