Opinions on Oak Leaves with Diamonds

[Tom B]

The piece in Post 42, so the "story" goes, is one of several obtained by a member here directly from an elderly jeweler, retired from Klein of Hanau, together with other things (including DKIG's from Klein, still in their wrapping). They were said by the jeweler to be pieces made by Klein apprentices, learning their trade. Some were complete, some almost complete and some in bits and pieces. Having had a great deal of correspondence with him, I personally absolutely believe the member here about the retired Klein jeweler and how these were obtained and it is my understanding (although I certainly can't speak for him) that Dietrich also believes.

I know that jewelers who have examined them have commented that the workmanship and quality are magnificent and would be very, very costly to duplicate.

I believe this to be true, as I was also in contact with the elderly retired jeweler
from Klein many years ago. Tom

[markus]

The piece in Post 42, so the "story" goes, is one of several obtained by a member here directly from an elderly jeweler, retired from Klein of Hanau, together with other things (including DKIG's from Klein, still in their wrapping). They were said by the jeweler to be pieces made by Klein apprentices, learning their trade. Some were complete, some almost complete and some in bits and pieces. Having had a great deal of correspondence with him, I personally absolutely believe the member here about the retired Klein jeweler and how these were obtained and it is my understanding (although I certainly can't speak for him) that Dietrich also believes.

I know that jewelers who have examined them have commented that the workmanship and quality are magnificent and would be very, very costly to duplicate.

When you compare one of these pieces to an attributed wartime original, one next to another, you will automatically come to the that conclusion.

[peterwyndavies]

Thanks Tom, Gary, chen, Schickle93, and markus.
Your pics are terrific chen.
Peter

[Gary Symonds]

I would like to make the following observations. Please look at the reverse of the gold swords in post 37. You will see that the circle "K" has two die flaws at 2 o'clock and 4 o'clock.

These same die flaws are evident in the pictures of the A pieces, in Previteria's second edition. At page 440, the same die flaw is in Gollob's circle K.

The same die flaw is depicted in the reverse of Hartman's A piece at page 443.

German Daggers.com in its illustration of all of the oak leaf family show the reverse of both platinum, silver and gold examples, with the same die flaws in the circle K, at 2 and 4.
Perhaps Chen can post a better closeup picture of the reverse of the example in post 41, which does show a circle K, but the picture is not very clear.

http://www.germandaggers.com/Gallery/OL.php

Die flaws are like fingerprints in this hobby. If the maker mark in 37 has these flaws, and the examples of the originals exhibit the same flaw, one has to draw the logical conclusion that the metal work in the Gold Diamonds in post 37 are Klein production, and probably wartime, based on the facts learned from the retired Klein employee. On the same facts from this man, the assembly and the insertion of the stones are post war.

[chen]

I would like to make the following observations. Please look at the reverse of the gold swords in post 37. You will see that the circle "K" has two die flaws at 2 o'clock and 4 o'clock.

These same die flaws are evident in the pictures of the A pieces, in Previteria's second edition. At page 440, the same die flaw is in Gollob's circle K.

The same die flaw is depicted in the reverse of Hartman's A piece at page 443.

German Daggers.com in its illustration of all of the oak leaf family show the reverse of both platinum, silver and gold examples, with the same die flaws in the circle K, at 2 and 4.
Perhaps Chen can post a better closeup picture of the reverse of the example in post 41, which does show a circle K, but the picture is not very clear.

http://www.germandaggers.com/Gallery/OL.php

Die flaws are like fingerprints in this hobby. If the maker mark in 37 has these flaws, and the examples of the originals exhibit the same flaw, one has to draw the logical conclusion that the metal work in the Gold Diamonds in post 37 are Klein production, and probably wartime, based on the facts learned from the retired Klein employee. On the same facts from this man, the assembly and the insertion of the stones are post war.

Gary,
1. Attached is Klein log. The "break" in 2 and 4 O'clock are not die flaws.
2. Faker can fake stamp convincing or less convincing Klein logo easily ( see photo of this Cassino fake )

[Leroy]

The Klein logo is not always the same on these pieces, nor is the positioning of the loop. Also, if you look very closely and compare several pieces, the positioning of the brads holding the stones is very close, but not always the same. These are individually completed by hand, some better than others. What else would you expect from a "training exercise" for people learning their trade? These were never "award" pieces, nor intended to be. There are many differences between them and award pieces.

[Tom B]

Something I forgot to mention is I was told that several sets made in the 80's were not marked at all. I have seen a few sets like this. Do any of you have photos of un-marked sets ! Tom

[Leroy]

Also, compare the Klein logo as posted by Chen and the logo on on the Balck piece below (unquestionably original awarded piece) and a piece of finished Klein jewellery. The "breaks" sometimes show up, sometimes in different places, sometimes not at all. If you look closely and compare the photos of original pieces, whether in Forman, Maerz, Previtera or other sources, eventually you will see the overall "sameness" of finished award pieces, as well, however, as individual slight differences resulting from the craft of old world master hand work. The pieces from the Klein retired jeweller do NOT approach that level and are not in the same league...but they are still nice.

[Leroy]

And here is a COA Klietmann wrote on one of these pieces in 1985. He (incorrectly) thought it was a "B" piece. (Also note that the example in Klietmann's COA has the "fatter" center vein. Others have "thinner" veins.)

[chen]

To continue this Dr.Kiletmann piece( Belly Dancer in our classification) development:
1.It has a small Klein logo, 935 ..etc stamp at back ( see photos)
2. Someone decides to refine item 1. by chnaging the stamping to simulate genuine Klein stamping as it is now bigger, more convincing looking ( see photo with red background) There is no change to the oakleave yet.
3. Now it seems that someone decides to further refine by thinning the fat central vein in order to look more genuine. By doing so, he thins off those excess metal. Then he puts up many dots to fill up these areas. (see photos)

[chen]

2.

[chen]

3.

[Leroy]

Chen - Your theory of "fake refinement" may be correct, but who now is to say? The "old man" story is believable, but maybe he is just the "master faker" who just happened to have retired from Klein (a story apparently supported by his family in Hanau), the actual conversations and meetings between him and our fellow WAF member (actually, members when you include Tom B many years ago) are an invention (a bit harsh I would say), and he's been doing this for over 30 years. The end result is still: nice pieces which are offered for sale for less than what jewelers say it would now cost to make them.

[Tom B]

Something I forgot to mention is I was told that several sets made in the 80's were not marked at all. I have seen a few sets like this. Do any of you have photos of un-marked sets ! Tom

Can anybody answer this??? Tom

[Leroy]

Tom - I have not, but I don't see why there wouldn't be any.

Chen - Here is the last one listed on WAF for sale. The stones are glued in and the individual "brads" used to hold the stones are missing, which would seem to indicate that those "brads", on other pieces, would have been mounted one by one, by hand.