PKZ numbering system

[Euronymous]

In my opinion, late 42 / beginning 43 seems to me very late. Why ? Unmarked iron crosses are not so easy to find compared to marked ones. Exemple: It's easier to find a marked "65" Klein & Quenzer than an unmarked one. If PKZ was arrived in 43, we would find so many unmarked crosses than marked ones. But, it's only my opinion.

[Dietrich Maerz]

In my opinion, late 42 / beginning 43 seems to me very late. Why ? Unmarked iron crosses are not so easy to find compared to marked ones. ..

Have you considered that in the later years of the war the amount of awarded crosses (EK1, EK2, RK) was far higher than in the first two years of the war? Did you know that - as an example - 50% of all Knights Crosses were awarde after January 1944, meaning in the last 16 months of the war? One is for sure on the safe side if one assumes that the same was the case with the EK1 and EK2.

It would be indeed a very strange thing if the unmarked examples would show up in higher quantities than the marked ones!

[Leroy]

Dietrich - Not to be argumentative (no one can prove with documentation anything at this point), but it seems to me that the "non-marking" of Brilliants sets
with PKZ numbers indicates nothing about the time of implementation of PKZ numbers. The Brilliants were never marked with PKZ numbers and so the absence of such a number means nothing, one way or the other, in the establishment of any timeline. It is a "neutral" event (although an interesting sidelight).

[Dietrich Maerz]

Gentry, you are most likely right with the Type 2!
With the Type 1 I think I have a very strong argument. As you will see in the current issue of the International Militaria Collector there existst (at least) one completely unmarked example of the Type 1 Diamonds. It could very well be that this example was produced before March 15, 1941. Later models, surely produced after March 15, 1941, are stamped L/50.
This is for me a clear indication that in one case there was no marking available and in the other cases only the recently introduced LDO-number and not also the PKZ number, something that is proposed without any solid reasoning as an "opinion."

There are so many examples of the non-existence of the PKZ numbers in the time before late 1942 that I really wonder why this is even disputed. Even the famous K&Q Wound Badge points to that date!

[Leroy]

What I find really interesting is that the Brilliants weren't even "official" until September, 1941, yet the first set was awarded 3 months earlier, in June, to Moelders and the "unmarked set" you mention of the first type must have either pre-dated the March LDO number assignment or post-dated the October cut-off of commercial sales.

[Euronymous]

Yes, I agree Dietrich, the amount of awarded crosses was higher in the later year of the war. Sorry, I had forgotten that fact !

[Andreas Klein]

Hi Dietrich,

i will come back your hard evidences later on in a few days. Let me just give a quick reply to this:

How can one misunderstand that sentence below?

Quote:
Based on this overall context it's my opinion that the PKZ numbers where known allready in late 1940/early to mid 1941 by the officals and not later. Maybe it took some time until the numbers reached every maker but i'm sure that we don't talk about months and years to distribute the PKZ numbers to the firms.

This is a typo done by me and i have to say sorry for it. Correct would be "late 1941/early 1942".

[Ludwig]

To be honest, I think we can all trust the information Dietrich Maerz gives us about the different systems. As far as I know, he´s not a sloppy guy who just guesses

[Dietrich Maerz]

I don't refer just to EK2...
I wasn't suprised on the reactions, but I was suprised that after this story superficial knowledge set this thing petty! Furthermore in Hungary there is a few person only that have knowlegde about this story, 1 year ago you don't even heard about that.
Just for the facts, Dr. Sallay isn't the Director of the museum but also the medal collection management, it's different! He manages more than 40.000 pieces, of course that aren't all German.
He wrote to you that He consider with responsibility for the group ('42 May) since He works there,1999-2000.BUT the Museum's inventory diary, Inventory and Receipts is precise! Dr. Sallay published an article in 2005 but only about the story, and I filled out that with PKZ numbers importance.Nobody claimed that the PKZ numbers were introduced in early '42, just that in this group there was/were PKZ numbered piece, ergo already EXISTED! However against the '42/'43 hypothesis.
Besides the EK2 there was PKZ numbered "124" black wound badge as well, and there was non military awards with PKZ numbers as well that doesn't prefered by you, like "30,"21.Of course that statement is questionable too.

In order to close out this specific topic and the completely wrong conclusions drawn by some here is what has transpired:
I contacted Dr. Sallay and reported to him again the above mentioned statement. Dr. Sallay was extremely help full and today I received photos of all the remaining items in the custody of the Hungarian Military and History Museum, reportedly sent by the PKZ to Hungary in early 1942.
The original list mentions 36 German War Decorations , each supplied twice.

Here is what the museum has:
(2) War Merit Cross 2. Class with Swords (one confectioned with needle)
(1) War Merit Cross 2. Class w/o Swords
(2) War Merit Medal
(2) Wound Badge in Black (worn)
(1) Spange 1. Class, unmarked
(1) War Merit Cross 1. Class with Swords, unmarked
(1) Knights Cross to the War Merit Cross w/o Swords, Deschler, 900 only
(1) Volkspflege Medal
(1) Order of the German Eagle, 3. Class w/o Swords (900, 21, confectioned with needle)
(1) Order of the German Eagle, Medal with Swords (30, confectioned with needle)
(1) Spanish Cross in Silver w/o Swords, L/12 900
(1) Spanish Cross in Gold (? or Bronze) with Swords, L/12
(1) Spanish Cross in Gold (? or Bronze) w/o Swords, L/12
(1) Iron Cross 2. Class, reported with 132 (can't see)

Out of a total of 72 supplied items 17 items remain as of today. I have to check with Dr. Sallay again, but the list I have does not show the 3. Class Eagle Order w/o Swords, only the grades with Swords. Only one of the items (Wound Badge) has someting that could be a museum number, all other items are untacked.
I also could not see any marking (124) on any of the two Black Wound Badges (which both are in a "worn" condition).

It is very shaky to use these 17 items for anything related to the institutional date of the PKZ since it is really not something that could be named "well preserved" as a group (which is understandeable!). However, if one wants to use it one can say this:

Apart from (maybe) the EK2 and the two Eagle Orders with PKZ number (one not being on the list) all other items are unmarked. I am especially intrigued about the unmarked Deschler War Merit Cross w/o Swords. One does not see that very often!
All other items on the list, Grand Crosses, Diamonds, ElmS, EL, Knight Crrosses, German Crosses, ... have disappeared between early 1942 and 2016.
IMHO this is not an example FOR the introduction of the PKZ in late 1941/early 1942 but rather a strong one AGAINST that date, for the RK of the KVK alone! Everything points again to a date of end 1942/beginning 1943!

This is another "story" that blows into the face of the researcher when looked at seriously. Nevertheless, very interesting, at least for me! A big Thank You again to Dr. Sallay and his commitment to help!

Dietrich

[Leroy]

The "list" seems to show 3 pieces with PKZ numbers. Is this "list" the "official" one from the Museum?

[Dietrich Maerz]

I received all the photos of all remaining items and have created that list based on the photos( 2-4 photos each item). And yes, it seems to show three items with a PKZ number. One item with such a number was not even on the original list of supplied items, so it can't be part of the original shipment.
That leaves two, of which one has a PKZ number of 132 (only ten are higher. I could not see the number but I hope that Kraut didn't invent that ...) and the other one a 30 (which is Hauptmünzamt Wien!).
All the others (14!) are unmarked or L/12.

I know it will never convince the hardliners, but to use these two or three items in the heavily diminished and replenished "grouping" what once was (or may have been) the original shipment from the PKZ as evidence for an introduction of the PKZ number in late 1941/early 1942 is highlty unscientific and wishfull thinking. And I am not even talking about all the other points which I have offered as evidence multiple times (and which has never been reputed, despite the promiss to do so!) I have heard better stories that turned out to be completely false and I thank the museum again for helping me to clear this up once and for all.

[Leroy]

Why, I wonder, would Dr. Sallay give a list of the items received, then multiple photos of the items still remaining from the shipment, but include an item not on the list? Is this an error?

[Dietrich Maerz]

The original list is an original list in German, made by the PKZ and supplied with the items in May 1942. (RP.O. 153/42). That list, which is called "Inventory" lists 36 War Medals, 2 each.