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**Hank C.** · 08-12-2015, 09:54 AM

Originally posted by AlikN View Post

....edit...., which in a way proves that crosses were disassembled and after they assembled back no one cared which ring goes where.

My first thought would be "why in God's name would they go hunt up X number of crosses, DISASSEMBLE THEM, put in a core, then REASSEMBLE THEM????" If these were made in Stalingrad, you're going to tell me the Russian propaganda machine just made cores, had "Crosss hunting teams" go out and gather them one at a time (with the possibility that a command post might be overrun, thereby garnering a larger quantity at once), then come back, have somebody take them apart, put in the core, solder them back up (cleanly, I might add), then go out and find places to put them back? I know that even with the siege going on they had high tea every day and Sundays off (hint: that might be sarcasm

) but I don't think there was enough time to do all that.

I'm skeptical, to say the least.

best
Hank

**AlikN** · 08-12-2015, 10:36 AM

Originally posted by Hank C. View Post

...If these were made in Stalingrad, you're going to tell me the Russian propaganda machine just made cores, had "Crosss hunting teams" go out and gather them one at a time ...

I just pass a newly found information.
And it was Leningrad, not Stalingrad. I don't think they had a cross hunting team, they probably had boxes of an awarded crosses that were captured at some point.

**firefighter1** · 08-12-2015, 01:49 PM

Your opinion?

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**Miro O** · 08-12-2015, 02:02 PM

Originally posted by Hank C. View Post

My first thought would be "why in God's name would they go hunt up X number of crosses, DISASSEMBLE THEM, put in a core, then REASSEMBLE THEM????" If these were made in Stalingrad, you're going to tell me the Russian propaganda machine just made cores, had "Crosss hunting teams" go out and gather them one at a time (with the possibility that a command post might be overrun, thereby garnering a larger quantity at once), then come back, have somebody take them apart, put in the core, solder them back up (cleanly, I might add), then go out and find places to put them back? I know that even with the siege going on they had high tea every day and Sundays off (hint: that might be sarcasm

) but I don't think there was enough time to do all that.

I'm skeptical, to say the least.

best
Hank

Sorry, but I think personally, that doubting of Russians being able to make impossible things is the worst argument in this debate.

It´s a myth that there was shortage of something in wartime Russia, mainly of people. Soviet annual number of conscripts was 2,7 million of soldiers. It´s equal to the combat strength of German army marching to Russia during Barbarossa. They could die like flies, until they withstood one winter, everything was OK. Next year another 2,7 million of conscripts were prepared to give their lifes. Ruskies could afford new Barbarossa every year. That is a math that Germany couldn´t neither afford, nor imagine.

There is a nice book about Leningrad siege, published around 2013 (English author), where is clearly stated and proved, that Leningrad famine during siege was not caused by shortage of proviant - but by the corruption in russian supply system. Shortly said, as soon as planned food supply arrived to Leningrad, it was nearly completely stolen.

It is a myth that Russian had shortages of technique. Even official Soviet History of Patriotic War admits, that Soviets could afford to cut in half the supply time for Uranus offensive (Stalingrad counter) by sending full trains to the Stalingrad via both railroads without wasting one road for sending empty trains back. When the train was unloaded, it was derailed with crane. And they could afford not only this, but also using the people as living light signals alongside the whole railroad. Thus they reached frequency of trains equal to frequency of Moscow metro/subway.

And finally, it is a myth that common Russian soldier suffered from living conditions at the front. In fact, the common soviet infanterist was a peasant and his living conditions at front were far superior to his civil life conditions - he was not forced to work like a horse (just like a mule) always had what to eat, what to drink - and what to rape. Yes, there was a lot of dying in soldier´s life, but the same routine was waiting him in common life of poor russian village - without basic healthcare, without hope and without medals for heroic deeds. There is nice book about that - Ivan´s War. Highly reccomend.

But we, as a collectors - not historians, should stick with our phaleristic arguments. Not only because they are more friendly to us, but also easier to imagine and clear. This cross is just crap, because it uses postwar Souval frame. Of course, there are Raub und Mord crosses with different, proved wartime frames, but since they have the same core as this crap, they all are the same crap as well.

Miro

**boch_62** · 08-12-2015, 02:10 PM

Originally posted by ben bijker View Post

I am still waiting for rock-solid proof these were period made.

I really don't see Russians under siege, with shortage of everything, wasting time and money to crank these out.
Just too hard to believe...

Hi Ben,

IMO, sometimes when something looks very impossible, it is all the more likely, and Russian propaganda could do not such things ...

Regards
Jarek

**Don D.** · 08-12-2015, 03:40 PM

But why put your "message" on the reverse? Seems to me you would want people to see it.

**Hank C.** · 08-12-2015, 05:07 PM

Originally posted by AlikN View Post

I just pass a newly found information.
And it was Leningrad, not Stalingrad. I don't think they had a cross hunting team, they probably had boxes of an awarded crosses that were captured at some point.

No worries Alik. I'm sure some of the other threads here in the forum quote Stalingrad, Leningrad, Moscow, wherever.

Originally posted by Don D. View Post

But why put your "message" on the reverse? Seems to me you would want people to see it.

Not only that, but so small? You'd think they'd want something larger, like a Gorget around the neck or some such. Something that would really stand out even if you just glanced at it. A cross, you'd have to really get down and look at it.

best,
Hank

**HAF** · 08-12-2015, 08:15 PM

very ineresting thread!!!!!!!!!!

**AUSGANG** · 08-13-2015, 01:26 AM

Parts

As I stated on another thread regarding these items:

For a while I collected souveniers made right after hostilities ended that were sold to the occupying GIs. Its an interesting field of collectible. In some cases the contractors that were making weapon parts switched over to making souveniers. I have some very elaborate cigarette lighters that look like American jeeps that are machined out of ingots and inscribed with numers and letters with a lathe. My guess is these crosses have nothing to do with Stalingrad at all (just add the provenance of Stalingrad to any Nazi stuff and the price doubles). I believe that these crosses are postwar, made to shame the Germans. I don't see the logic in making sarcastic awards for German POWs, nor wasting precious time and materials producing them. I think that they were produced directly after the war ended as souveniers. Postwar,but not by much,an occupation souvenier.

Attached Files

**Disco Partisan** · 08-13-2015, 05:31 AM

Originally posted by Miro O View Post

Sorry, but I think personally, that doubting of Russians being able to make impossible things is the worst argument in this debate.

It´s a myth that there was shortage of something in wartime Russia, mainly of people. Soviet annual number of conscripts was 2,7 million of soldiers. It´s equal to the combat strength of German army marching to Russia during Barbarossa. They could die like flies, until they withstood one winter, everything was OK. Next year another 2,7 million of conscripts were prepared to give their lifes. Ruskies could afford new Barbarossa every year. That is a math that Germany couldn´t neither afford, nor imagine.

There is a nice book about Leningrad siege, published around 2013 (English author), where is clearly stated and proved, that Leningrad famine during siege was not caused by shortage of proviant - but by the corruption in russian supply system. Shortly said, as soon as planned food supply arrived to Leningrad, it was nearly completely stolen.

It is a myth that Russian had shortages of technique. Even official Soviet History of Patriotic War admits, that Soviets could afford to cut in half the supply time for Uranus offensive (Stalingrad counter) by sending full trains to the Stalingrad via both railroads without wasting one road for sending empty trains back. When the train was unloaded, it was derailed with crane. And they could afford not only this, but also using the people as living light signals alongside the whole railroad. Thus they reached frequency of trains equal to frequency of Moscow metro/subway.

And finally, it is a myth that common Russian soldier suffered from living conditions at the front. In fact, the common soviet infanterist was a peasant and his living conditions at front were far superior to his civil life conditions - he was not forced to work like a horse (just like a mule) always had what to eat, what to drink - and what to rape. Yes, there was a lot of dying in soldier´s life, but the same routine was waiting him in common life of poor russian village - without basic healthcare, without hope and without medals for heroic deeds. There is nice book about that - Ivan´s War. Highly reccomend.

But we, as a collectors - not historians, should stick with our phaleristic arguments. Not only because they are more friendly to us, but also easier to imagine and clear. This cross is just crap, because it uses postwar Souval frame. Of course, there are Raub und Mord crosses with different, proved wartime frames, but since they have the same core as this crap, they all are the same crap as well.

Miro

yet just another

Historical revisionism - is the denial and distortion of well-established historical facts

**Douglas 5** · 08-13-2015, 09:47 AM

Nice example Ausgang ... I agree with that raised type core . ... post war souvenir addition .

Does that 1813 date style not appear on post war crosses ??
I have seen different styles of the engraved cores also .

Douglas

**Miro O** · 08-13-2015, 12:59 PM

Originally posted by Disco Partisan View Post

yet just another

Historical revisionism - is the denial and distortion of well-established historical facts

If authors like Norman Davies, Catherine Merridale or Anna Reid are revisionists, then I am revisionist too. But it´s really hard to accuse official Soviet historians (P. N. Pospelov + collective of authors: History of Great Patriotic War 1941-45, Moscow 1961) which I quote too, of being revisionists.

I didn´t quote neither David Irving nor Viktor Suvorov. All books I mentioned, are available on Amazon (except official soviet history, of course).

http://www.amazon.com/Leningrad-Epic...5ZXRSGP82FR4JC

http://www.amazon.com/Europe-War-193.../dp/0330352121

http://www.amazon.com/Ivans-War-Life.../dp/0312426526

Miro

**Disco Partisan** · 08-13-2015, 02:37 PM

keep away your revisionists bs because your lie offends me personally and better learn the real history:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German...zechoslovakia#

**Miro O** · 08-13-2015, 03:16 PM

Originally posted by Disco Partisan View Post

keep away your revisionists bs because your lie offends me personally and better learn the real history:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German...zechoslovakia#

You have enough posts to find out, that this forum is full of revisionists. Without their revisions, the history would be full of beautiful Rounders, genuine Floch crosses , original Raptor clasps - and period Raub und Mord pieces.

To your off topic link - Soviet "liberation" of Czechoslovakia ended with annexation of Carpathian Ukraine in 1945. And Soviet occupation lasted longer. From 1968 until 1990.

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