K&Q electron miscroscopy preliminary results- facinating

[Brian S]

The testing is a posative help, but it must be kept in mind that it should not be the sole determinator. As I have pointed out with the items found in Isreal, a whole industrie was created on these antiques that now grace most of the GREAT MUSEUMS. Sience was the prover of the fakes being original.

You're mixing apples and oranges here. We're not talking about taking 2,000 year old ossuary and inscribing Jesus' name on it. Nor are we that naive...

[WalterB]

The testing is a posative help, but it must be kept in mind that it should not be the sole determinator. As I have pointed out with the items found in Isreal, a whole industrie was created on these antiques that now grace most of the GREAT MUSEUMS. Sience was the prover of the fakes being original.

Wonderful contribution to realistic discussion and common sense If applied properly, science cannot be wrong. As to your example of the ossuary, science can perhaps tell you that the materials or whatever are from a particular period. It will not tell you that it belonged to a specific person. Science did not prove that the fakes were original. Give me a freakin break

[Brian S]

Yes, Walter. Science will prove the scratched inscription on the back of a PAB is definitely to Sepp Deitrich. And the NSDAP pin to AH. Yes, good for science We are so naive.

[jabbo]

Wonderful thread. I spent some time in a materials lab years ago while working on a physics thesis, and have always thought how useful it would be to apply SEM and other techniques to determine originality of relics. If I were rich I would build my own lab and offer authentication services for a nominal fee

There's some guy named Perino or something that does this for native American artifacts - you can get your $2000 Folsom point "Perino papered" by him. No one really knows what he does, but collectors apparently trust him.

I'm an open knowledge kind of guy, but I think that even with the difficulties involved in getting over the hurdle of elemental composition for fakers, that time is always on their side, and maybe the information should be protected. The art comparison isn't really valid - nobody is going to successfully fake the Mona Lisa, since only one exists. One can try to create a new Van Gogh, but the problem of convincing folks that it's been lying around neglected until now is extremely difficult. An RK is a different story. You can put up a Maginot line against the fakers, but time and careful thought will ultimately render it useless.

[WARLORD]

In the words of the enlightend "I hear what you say", but if this is your defence then pleased do not rely on me.

[Marc Garlasco]

Tom,

I am trying to work through a myriad of offers for help here in NY. PLENTY of SEM analysts, but one sent me this question:

My one concern is that SEM/EDS is a surface analysis (around 1 micron)
and
we could get fooled with plating.

How do I answer this?
Marc

[WARLORD]

Back to the drawing board. If you want to produce a platinum piece, plate it. But give it plenty. Re engrave the detail and plate again. You do not get loss of detail.

[Marc Garlasco]

Tom,

Never mind - I spoke to Warren out at ISU. He said it is really not a problem at all. Firstly, he said even an RK like you brought doesn't have plating like that left on it. Worst case he said you do a micro scrape to get to the substrate. He said he was more concerned with oxidation, but he was amazed that the crosses were not oxidized!

Regards,
Marc

[Marc Garlasco]

OK - I have a date at Stoneybrook University on Long Island week of 24 Jan and at CUNY Staten Island the first week of Feb. Stoneybrook is charging, the other is free. Well, I can at least buy him lunch!

Marc

[Brian S]

Back to the drawing board. If you want to produce a platinum piece, plate it. But give it plenty. Re engrave the detail and plate again. You do not get loss of detail.

Chris, you're way out to far left field on your problems with this...

[Marc Garlasco]

I am set for 10AM (EST), 24 Jan, at Stoneybrooke University on Long Island. SEBA - I will see you Sat at Union and we can talk. I am not sure how long a drive that is for you. We can always stay at my brother's house Sun night if you want since he lives near there and has a 61" HDTV and lots of beer...

Dr. Quinn (yes, that's his name) has agreed to give me the whole day - as long as I don't bore him. He really doesn't understand exactly what I am bringing...

At this point I plan to test:

1) A pair of Daisy PABs - one real, one fake (thanks Don!)
2) A K&Q RK
3) A fake EK1
4) A "Russian Hoard" 26 EK1
5) A fire-gilted U-Boat badge
6) 1870 EK1 - I am SO freaking curious!
7) I will have my whole collection with me so more if time permits

And if SEBA comes I will modify this list with his items as well.
Marc

[Marc Garlasco]

Had to move it to the 27th due to work. Thanks to all those who have sent me fakes. We now have a nice pool of items to check!
Marc

[Peter Wiking]

3) A fake EK1 (still waiting on the post! )

Marc.
Edit your post. You have that cross now from me

Cheers.
Peter

[John Pepera]

What has become of this endeavor?

Is anyone still active in this persuit?

[Marc Garlasco]

Christ John, you really dug this old thread up from the bowels! There are a few threads where I published some of the findings of looking at warbadges and crosses. Where are they? In here somewhere...
Best,
Marc