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**tom hansen** · 01-05-2005, 07:28 PM

Joe

1. We will have to test other makers to see. If the paint used by the different makers was of a different brand, which may have differences in composition of Ca, P, adn trace Fe and S, there may be a way to "fingerprint" different makers by paint. I doubt we will find this. I think the main thing is that we can verify period "bone black" paint by the elemental composition. It is possible, however, that some makers may have unique trace metals- we will see

2. There may be changes from late to early war with regard to paint if they changed brands within a maker. This would probably be unlikely as the amount of paint required for these medals would be rather small and one would not think there would be the need for multiple orders over time. Likewise for the metal used for the frames. The % of the rhodium coating may, however, be key in identifying each maker, as their special mix of Ni, Rh, and Ag may be different for each maker. That may be a key to each maker.

Marc- Good luck

! Any information from the SEM guys in Brooklyn?

**Marc Garlasco** · 01-05-2005, 07:37 PM

Tom,

I have requests in to 4 universities in NY, nothing back yet, but I was busy at work so I was only able to send e-mail. I will vigorously contact them tomorrow. Seems like almost every school I check out has a SEM. Seems to be common in these parts!

My hope is to test crosses and war badges. I also want to test one 1914 and 1870 EK1 & EK2 to see what the change over time is. I hope to get a positive reply soon and get this under way. I will need to be judicious in my use of time and have a solid plan as I would like to cover as much ground as possible.

Marc

**Bruce Simcox** · 01-05-2005, 07:47 PM

Hi Tom......

......having just read this thread I too will join those others that have congratulated you on such a nice piece of research. Great application of existing technology.
Now, perhaps, we can effectively make use of those broken and damaged original pieces that we have, for use as subjects for testing and measuring.
I am looking forward to what new and exciting knowledge that the New Year will bring via this testing method.

-------------------------

Bruce

**Peter Wiking** · 01-05-2005, 07:58 PM

How far can we stretch this. Will it work on zink and tombak. Wool, rayon and leather ? Daggers and SS rings ???

Cheers.
Peter

**Marc Garlasco** · 01-05-2005, 08:07 PM

These are a few of my favorite things, like silver white PABS and SS Honor Rings....

**Brian S** · 01-05-2005, 08:55 PM

What Can We Expect, or NOT?

This approach will work with anything in that a molecular fingerprint will emerge. What we need to remember is that all genuine RK's from any particular maker may not have the same fingerprint. Many possibilities, e.g., base silver sheet metal supplier changed, silver content reduce/increased, paint forumla/supplier changed, frosting/gilting techniques changed.

Also, what about restrikes. If those nasty awful rumor mongering basturds are right and there are restrikes will this approach definitely tell us they were created? Maybe NOT. How was an item restruck? Using original metals and acid techniques as with an Oaks/Swords? If it's 1960 only 15 years from the end of the war it's entirely conceivable leftover material could have been used for a simple squeeze out of a few dozen oaks/swords. It's conceivable then that a restruck piece have exactly the fingerprint of a wartime issue!

What we WILL see in the molecular fingerprint are traces of materials that do NOT belong in paints and metals. Modern compounds should jump out and hit the scientist immediately. Different combinations of the basic compounds of for example the K&Q, again, entirely possible if suppliers and/or raw materials change. But modern compounds especially in paint and finishing techniques should jump out. But a piece struck yesterday on original dies with only the 800 or so silver using period frosting techniques, will probably not jump out.

But if those oaks/swords were struck with a metal that was lying around and all the 'mint' pieces all have their own unique fingerprint, YOU will be the one to make YOUR own conclusion. Again, the facts, the circumstances, the dates created, will not be read like tea leaves. Ultimately the collector will have to make up his own mind.

I've read some material on how museums check paint compounds and these modern compounds that will be the 'tell'.

The results should be very interesting. But who is going to tell us he found modern compounds in his RK? Besides Dietrich and Tom and a few others I mean... Even if this is established as a new gospel it will be some time before a clear conclusion can be reached on the fingerprint of YOUR RK or medal. Unless you have modern compounds which I believe the out and out right fakes will have because, why not? Who was looking? But you'll never know if your piece was made in 1949 by period workers, period dies, and period materials.

But, much will be exposed. No one was looking before...

**tom hansen** · 01-05-2005, 08:57 PM

Originally posted by Flak88

These are a few of my favorite things, like silver white PABS and SS Honor Rings....

Is that supposed to be sung to the tune of a song from "The Sound of Music"

?

It seems as though this technique is best served for flat surfaces, but can be certainly used on a variety of items. The size of the scanning chamber could not accomodate a dagger, but could be analyzed by a small metal scraping. Other badges in tombak or cupal can be easily analyzed.

Marc- I am glad there are a bunch of SEMs there. If figured there would in the NY area. When you decide what to do, please post so we do not duplicate some of the things we are testing. I think that Dietrich is going to look at his rounder. We can pool standard data as well and save it for comparison.

**tom hansen** · 01-05-2005, 09:03 PM

Originally posted by Brian S

This approach will work with anything in that a molecular fingerprint will emerge. What we need to remember is that all genuine RK's from any particular maker may not have the same fingerprint. Many possibilities, e.g., base silver sheet metal supplier changed, silver content reduce/increased, paint forumla/supplier changed, frosting/gilting techniques changed.

Also, what about restrikes. If those nasty awful rumor mongering basturds are right and there are restrikes will this approach definitely tell us they were created? Maybe NOT. How was an item restruck? Using original metals and acid techniques as with an Oaks/Swords? If it's 1960 only 15 years from the end of the war it's entirely conceivable leftover material could have been used for a simple squeeze out of a few dozen oaks/swords. It's conceivable then that a restruck piece have exactly the fingerprint of a wartime issue!

What we WILL see in the molecular fingerprint are traces of materials that do NOT belong in paints and metals. Modern compounds should jump out and hit the scientist immediately. Different combinations of the basic compounds of for example the K&Q, again, entirely possible if suppliers and/or raw materials change. But modern compounds especially in paint and finishing techniques should jump out. But a piece struck yesterday on original dies with only the 800 or so silver using period frosting techniques, will probably not jump out.

But if those oaks/swords were struck with a metal that was lying around and all the 'mint' pieces all have their own unique fingerprint, YOU will be the one to make YOUR own conclusion. Again, the facts, the circumstances, the dates created, will not be read like tea leaves. Ultimately the collector will have to make up his own mind.

I've read some material on how museums check paint compounds and these modern compounds that will be the 'tell'.

The results should be very interesting. But who is going to tell us he found modern compounds in his RK? Besides Dietrich and Tom and a few others I mean... Even if this is established as a new gospel it will be some time before a clear conclusion can be reached on the fingerprint of YOUR RK or medal. Unless you have modern compounds which I believe the out and out right fakes will have because, why not? Who was looking? But you'll never know if your piece was made in 1949 by period workers, period dies, and period materials.

But, much will be exposed. No one was looking before...

I agree with that 100%. This will tell period materials quite well. For the particular purpose of the K&Q, where there was an issue of 1980s era restrikes, we were able to answer that question quite well. As far as 1943 vs 1949- this will not help there.

The technique is EXACTLY the technique used to verify fakes in art forgeries by virtue of the "fingerprints" of the elemental compostion of the pigments. This is where we will find good results. Also, different companies on the RK may use a different % of silver, rhodium, and nickle in thier rhodium plating. Maybe juncker or S&L did not use rhodium at all.

I think if someone comes across a fake, they will offer up the information. This is good data one way or another. I would think retention of information, good or bad, would not be good for the collecting community, as eventually it will be found out.

As an aside, does anyone think that Detlev will sell that non-juncker cross? I have not seen it on his site. If he will sell it, I will buy it and test it. Bad results there may throw the dealer world on its ear. But a new variant would be worth shelling out the money to examine. I think he has a return policy as well if it is in fact, fake. If not, it would be very exciting.

**Dave Kane** · 01-05-2005, 09:09 PM

Originally posted by Larry L

First, Absolutely Great work Tom! Thank you for that!

Then, I think most old paints loses their ability to "stick" properly to the surface. It needs extra chemicals to make the paint act like normal 60 years ago. (I think adhesion/adhesiveness is the word I'm looking here, correct me if it's not it

).

So, basically fakers are not able to produce exactly similar molecule fingerprint without spending huge amounts of money and effort to find that exact mixture. Almost impossible.

L

ps. I think Sebastian should make you a lifetime member on this forum!

Now there's something to think about!!! There's so few who actually give to the hobby............. but so many who take from it!

I'd vote an 'aye'

**Dietrich Maerz** · 01-05-2005, 09:36 PM

Dave,

I know that you can make "fcukwits" to lifetime members, but can you do that with "idiots" too?

Dietrich

P.S.: That was completely uneccessary and should be erased!

**Dave Kane** · 01-05-2005, 09:39 PM

DON'T I LOVE IT!!!!

Damn, I love that dry wit

I wish I had the talant......

**Sebastian Bianchi** · 01-05-2005, 10:05 PM

Originally posted by Dietrich

Dave,

I know that you can make "fcukwits" to lifetime members, but can you do that with "idiots" too?

Dietrich

P.S.: That was completely uneccessary and should be erased!

Dietrich, can you please explain this message to all of us?

I look forward to it.

Thank you,

**Brian Dentino** · 01-05-2005, 10:21 PM

Tom, I am WAY out of my league here but I just wanted to say how great it was that someone is taking their time and money to further our pusuit of "PURE" collections with science. Thanks, and I have really enjoyed reading this thread.

Brian Dentino

**Sebastian Bianchi** · 01-05-2005, 10:36 PM

On the topic at hand I would just like the add that these are indeed great strides, and I would be willing to go to NY with my RK to test it.

**Marc Garlasco** · 01-05-2005, 10:37 PM

SEBA,
I'll let you know when I get it set up.
Marc

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K&Q electron miscroscopy preliminary results- facinating

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