K&Q electron miscroscopy preliminary results- facinating

[Ludwig]

-

VERY interesting, Tom!
Perhaps some day a Luftwaffe Tank Battle Badge can be examined the same way? Good work!

[Dietrich Maerz]

I'm currently in contact with the SEM department of the Michigan University. It looks like that I will be able to sponsor a full semester with a student doing the research under my guidance. The final amount of money still needs to be determined but it is feasable. This would allow us to do a full set-up study of quite a lot of medals and establish the base for the full range study. The student will get the necessary college credit. With the help of the Professor this will be a solid and undisputable scientific work.

I keep you posted.


Dietrich

[Don D.]

Marc, Dietrich, why don't you start a thread in the association area to coordinate different awrds for testing. I have one of the new daisy pabs I would offer up along with a real one.
Don

[Dietrich Maerz]

Yes, we should definetely do that.

We should establish areas as well as standards. We also need to have Tom's input because he's the one who started it and must be credited with this big time.

I will make no sense to run off like crazy in all kinds of directions.

I have a meeting pending with the Prof and maybe from there - together with the input of Tom's friend Warren - we should set up areas and standards.

I intend to concentrate on RK's and EK1's. To have a look at some oaks would be beneficial also, I guess.

Dietrich

[Jon Fish]

Yes, we should definetely do that.

We should establish areas as well as standards. We also need to have Tom's input because he's the one who started it and must be credited with this big time.

I will make no sense to run off like crazy in all kinds of directions.

I have a meeting pending with the Prof and maybe from there - together with the input of Tom's friend Warren - we should set up areas and standards.

I intend to concentrate on RK's and EK1's. To have a look at some oaks would be beneficial also, I guess.

Dietrich

Good work. the technical data means nothing to me but I guess so long as all original match up. But washing with soap and water first,this I'm not to keen on ,what about any exsisting patina ? does this mean we will see more pieces having their patina and age washed away ,a great chame as its always nice to find pieces like that.
Also don't kid yourself,the fakers will take this date and work on it ,probably already doing so. Dont forget in these Eastern block countrys there are many for rent professors and probably stores of 40's paint,you would only need one tin of period paint etc to make a large batch.
Does no one else not feel a little afraid to give this info straight to the fakers?

[tom hansen]

Jon-


This was adressed earlier. It is IMPOSSIBLE to fake the exact elemental composition of a paint or metal to this degree of accuracy. They may get close, but this simply cannot be faked to this degree. We can give them all the information we want now, as they cannot reproduce these materials to this degree.

Now if they got a hold of bone black pigment paint, they still have to duplicate the exact alloy compostion. This is a little trickier than it sounds, and it is difficult to do sometime even on an industrial scale.



Dietrich- Thanks for the mention, but I do not know crap about SEM. I think that your approach of chatting with the enigineer at your SEM as well as this Warren at Iowa State is the right approach, as they are the experts in this field and will be able to help us accurately answer questions without a bunch of failed evaluations.

[Dietrich Maerz]

Does no one else not feel a little afraid to give this info straight to the fakers?

Who says we will? And this whole business is really just one aspect of determining the originality of an item. There's no need to throw money at a dipped ring fake. I see this more as a contribution of academic and historic value. You have the weight, you have the beading characteristics, you have the shape of the numerals, now you might have the color and silver composition also. The whole thing will only become clear in it's full weight when enough data are collected and one can see a pattern, trend or modus operandi.

No need to become over-exited. The first good test will be a Floch. If the paint is the same composition then a proven EK1 it's really worthless. But I hope the opposite is true.

This is NOT the magic bullet against fakes, but it is another tool that will scare the fakers badly. No doubt about that!

Dietrich

[Larry L]

First, Absolutely Great work Tom! Thank you for that!

Then, I think most old paints loses their ability to "stick" properly to the surface. It needs extra chemicals to make the paint act like normal 60 years ago. (I think adhesion/adhesiveness is the word I'm looking here, correct me if it's not it ).

So, basically fakers are not able to produce exactly similar molecule fingerprint without spending huge amounts of money and effort to find that exact mixture. Almost impossible.

L

ps. I think Sebastian should make you a lifetime member on this forum!

[tom hansen]

Thanks Larry!


Dietrich- you are right. This is not the "magic bullet" to kill fakes. It is simply another tool. It will identify period materials, but if there is a fake made with period materials in the late 40s or 50s, it will probably have the same materials. If a fake is later, the materials will be different. This just helps us identify the period pieces. With further information, I think we may be able to get some items we can "fingerprint" with regard to maker as well as period materials. I think this will be the minority of pieces, but I am sure there will be a few we hit some home runs with.

Again, to come up with the correct beading, weight, appearance of the digits, elemental composition of both the paint and the metal (we did not even test the solder, which would be interesting as well) is impossible. Good luck to future fakers, as I think they will need it!

[Adrian Stevenson]

Very interesting thread and congrats to Tom for carrying out this work


Chers, Ade.

[meriksson]

Im willing to send you my L15 EK1 as long i get it back after the test, i pay the shipping . I will also contribut to the sum you need to get it going.
Mikael

Who says we will? And this whole business is really just one aspect of determining the originality of an item. There's no need to throw money at a dipped ring fake. I see this more as a contribution of academic and historic value. You have the weight, you have the beading characteristics, you have the shape of the numerals, now you might have the color and silver composition also. The whole thing will only become clear in it's full weight when enough data are collected and one can see a pattern, trend or modus operandi.

No need to become over-exited. The first good test will be a Floch. If the paint is the same composition then a proven EK1 it's really worthless. But I hope the opposite is true.

This is NOT the magic bullet against fakes, but it is another tool that will scare the fakers badly. No doubt about that!

Dietrich

[Dietrich Maerz]

Mikael,

do a search under L15. I have one too. So if yours is the same, save your money. Otherwise we will talk later.

Dietrich

P.S.: And yes, you would get it back!!!!!

[Steve Sherlock]

This is SPECTACULAR, Tom. Talk about a contribution to the collecting field. While it's a shame that the hobby had to come to this level of forensic research, I'm very glad to see someway to get back at the buggers who reproduce this stuff.

I also like the dispelling of the rumor or notion that rhodium was never used in the frosting. Of course, with the dispelling of one rumor, there is sure to be another:

Overheard at the next militaria show:

"Ya know, REAL Knight's Crosses were painted with paint that has the charred bones of concentration camp victims in it. THAT'S how ya kin REALLY tell a REAL KC. An ya kan see it in a mikroskope. Ya know??"

Steve

[Joseph D'Errico]

Hi Tom,

Interesting thread and thank you for posting your findings at your exspense of time and money.

Just a question, because I have no idea or perhaps I didn't get a clear picture from reading through the thread. So bear with me as I use my own words to better understand.

1. Is it correct to say that each maker would vary from one to another ( as expected), but at the same time a criteria for a singular maker would be concise.Meaning if a test was preformed on each maker of RKs for example, thier would be indesputable evidence for eack maker ?

2. By using this type of testing and yielded data in establishing a criteria, since the war went on from 1939-1945 would it be expected that an early RK produced by K &Q would also share the same results as a later war piece ? Or even though the exact materials might not match, the later war cross would still be able to be dated pre-1945, just different materials ?

Just asking as all this is very new to me and I really like the approach. seems like a ton of data is required for each maker, all different periods as well as different materials that may have changed during the course of the war.

Is that correct or am I not getting it. Again just trying to understand that data.

Cheers,
Joe

[Marc Garlasco]

Joe,
Good questions. I have a K&Q RK that I will test, so that will help in seeing if there is a true baseline. I will also test a K&Q EK1, a fake EK1, and others. I want to test my Junker pilot badge to see what comes up. Of course it is original as I bought it from you! DO you have a fake I can use to test against it?

Regards,
Marc