K&Q electron miscroscopy preliminary results- facinating

[Dave Kane]

Hold on now Lads! There are indeed a lot of self proclaimed experts among us who feel that if they 'shout the loudest' people will listen to them.....


It certainly occured regarding RHODIUM and FROSTING!! Just check previous posts and especially one of mine regarding a nice mint S&K Knight's Cross.

However, the frosting was considerably different in S&L, Juncker to that of the effect accomplished by K&Q! Don't forget that K&Q used a different 'process' and had a completly different 'look' to the frosting....its process could very well have used RHODIUM as an ingredient toward the overall effect and 'silvering/dulling' of the inner frame.

The question is still out regarding RHODIUM being used as a plating material for the outer flanges on other make crosses.....

I believe it was....

[Dietrich Maerz]

Brian, Bill and (maybe) Pieter on a computer screen in a lab facing the truth!!!!

What a picture! It can't be better!

Dietrich

[Brian S]

Secret note to Dietrich, no one else read please: Dietrich now if someone else goes to a University or engineering shop and does the same thing, then there will be and .

That would indicate the ability of the "common man" and the "uneducated American" 's ability to do this testing.

Yeah baby. This could be the end of a lot of fake and, dare I say it, yes I dare, restrikes.

Our gloating is getting a little out of hand here, close this thread.

[Dietrich Maerz]

Dietrich now if someone else goes to a University or engineering shop and does the same thing, then there will be and .

It will be done...

Dietrich

[Dietrich Maerz]

Dave,

you are right. It can't be that from just one investigation to conclude that eveything else was done like that. This is just the beginning. What needs to be done now is to test all makers and as much as possible. Every Juncker style, every S&L and what have you. Maybe we can come up with a 'Tom Hansen Test Standard' (i.e. the description of the helpfull guy at the university) so that every test is done with the same parameters.
Several members can then start doing this at different places and we will have a database. And yes, I suppose that Juncker will be different form K&Q and from S&L, but they will most likely be consistent by company!

One thing is sure now: K&Q used Rhodium coating. Not more and not less.

Dietrich

[Marc Garlasco]

And we need to test fakes and post 1945 restrikes for baselines...

[Marc Garlasco]

And I would pay good money to test a Luftwaffe Tank Battle Badge!!!
Marc

[Dave Kane]

Yes, it is exciting news and as an aside I hope it 'opens the eyes' of the old school know-it-alls or 'cliques'


As suggested many moons ago...there will be a lot of "MYTHS" broken very soon....

[tom hansen]

I agree- this is one test, but it is fairly conclusive with regard to this maker. We should evaluate other samples and other known fakes and compare them to "inconclusive" pieces. I think we will learn alot. This technique is very liberating, as it does put hard evidence and data in the hands of those regarded as idiots (me) and helps answer questions that were previously speculation.


1. As an aside as well, look at the Ca and P content on the paint. This is bone ash for black pigment (that is where the Ca(PO4)2 comes from- BONE). An OLD means of creating black pigment. Look at how conistent the % is between the EK2 and the RK. Also note the 1% sulpher and between 5 and 6% iron. These %s and the trace metals are good fingerprints for this black pigment.

2. Also, does anyone else find the % of silver in the RK frame higher than 80% interesting?

3. What about the fact that the EK2s are both silver plated and have neusilber beneath? Were most EK2s silver plated or made of just neusilber?

[Dave Kane]

Tom, respectfully...knock it off!!! ("hard evidence and data in the hands of those regarded as idiots (me) and helps answer questions that were previously speculation.

")

It takes guys like you and several others of the type to shake this hobby up.....(you) may not be popular as many of us aren't but by golly you stand behind what you say and don't just gather among the popular crowd!!


Tom, be happy and proud of what you have given the community......you offered "FACTS" and not just excuses, stories...and the worst of all a 'book'!!

Enjoy the spotlight....


And, in the parlance...............GOOD ON YOU!!!!!!

[tom hansen]

Thanks Dave!

Pretty cool about the "bone black" pigment as opposed to the newer carbon black pigments. I think that many who have gone through this thread do not realize that this is an OLD BLACK PIGMENT and is rarely used anymore, as it is more expensive and less durable than the new carbon black pigments. This will really be a nice marker which is EASY to detect by the high Ca and P spikes which will not be present in modern pigments. The bone black is literally made by burning animal bones in an iron vessel. This the Ca, P, and Fe spikes for this pigment which should be a very nice marker for us in the future.

[Marc Garlasco]

Tom,
Great point. I hope it holds up for all makers!
Marc

[Marc Garlasco]

Gents,
I have a friend who works at Brooklyn Polytechnic University. They have a SEM! Guess who I am calling tomorrow...

Tom - can you PM me contact info for the guy you worked with in case there are some technical questions they might have?

Marc

[Peter Wiking]

tom.
I think the Germans used carbon late in the war doing experiments with camoflage that could resist infrared light.

Cheers and keep up this fantastic work
Peter

[stogieman]

From the Imperial perspective on silver content....

My understanding of the German Law regarding content marks, the 2 most prevalent that I deal with being "800" & "938" is that these were to be minimum parts silver in the finished piece. So, I am not surprised at the higher purity than 800.... But!
I would speculate (purely) that that might help to date the frame to an earlier produced one as opposed to later in the war when silver become more difficult to find and work with.
This assumes that silver was in short-supply as it was during the end of WW1.