K&Q electron miscroscopy preliminary results- facinating

[tom hansen]

Perriod pain and enamel is avalble here in the UK. You have restorers here that have many different things. Concervation is one of the great atributes of antiques in this country

That is interesting. However, even if one had the paint, reproducing the exact rhodium alloy frosting and elemental composition of period sheet silver would be nearly impossible. Throw in ALL the other characteristics of the small die flaws that one sees on a juncker RK, which defines individual makers, and the chances of producing a perfect fake is about zero. This technique is simply a means of identifying period materials, but in addition to all the other characteristics, I really think that would be damn near impossible. Now look at the current fakes- nearly all clumsy attempts from a physical characteristic standpoint. Do you really think that with these poor attempts that they will suddenly gain advanced metalurgy and engineering information needed for manufacture of the "perfect fake"? Good luck to them- they will really need it now!

[Marc Garlasco]

Can I just point out that where this may have the greatest impact is in proving that suspect awards are real/fake. Rounders, "russian hoard" EK1s, etc.

[Peter Wiking]

Can I just point out that where this may have the greatest impact is in proving that suspect awards are real/fake. Rounders, "russian hoard" EK1s, etc.

Cheers.
Peter

[tom hansen]

I have another time slot on the SEM Jan 31st- my birthday present to myself, one day belated! I am planning to look at two juncker RKs, both with provenance, and a 3/4 ring. I would like to look at a godet and juncker EK1 for controls, so I will need to troll for these.

[Robin Lumsden]

Tom.

I replied to your message about the Dachau tabs on the other forum, as I can post pictures there.

Thanks again.

Robin.

[meriksson]

Please all have in mind this could say some geniun EK´s are fakes. I dont think the makers did recive the same material to the frames etc, if you look at the time tabel 1939-1945.

Mikael

[WARLORD]

As to copying, I would draw your attention to the discovery of the second royal tablet in Isreal and the bone box of James the Just. The sientific evidence and what this has done to the antiques of the period. Sience was the prover of the fakes as original. It was the knoledge of anchient Hebrew that gave the clue.

[tom hansen]

As to copying, I would draw your attention to the discovery of the second royal tablet in Isreal and the bone box of James the Just. The sientific evidence and what this has done to the antiques of the period. Sience was the prover of the fakes as original. It was the knoledge of anchient Hebrew that gave the clue.

Guys. This is pretty simple. In that case of the James the Just box, they did not have a known standard with which to compare. If there were not two boxes of James the Just, then a comparitive analysis would not be possible. The process is simply analyzing a piece and determining the elemental composition. A comparison is made with a known standard. If the elemental composition is identical, one can assume they are of the same componants.

If a piece is made from non-period materials, I think we can safely assume it is a fake. That is the real value of this technique. That is, 1970s materials would not be present on 1940s era pieces. If the materials are period, then we can only assume they are period COMPONANTS. This is only one factor in determing whether a peice is orignal or fake, as noted before.

[Erich B.]

The other difference is that with some fraundulent antiquities, the item is period but the inscription is done later. That would be the case with, say, a presented item with engraving that may or not be period, but the testing would show the case to be period.
Erich

[Marc Garlasco]

Attention naysayers: The BOTTOM LINE is this is worthwhile research and should be done. Should we keep our eyes closed to science because of fear?

FOR THE LAST TIME, this is one more thing for us to use. Should we ignore die flaws? Get over it people. Or are you afraid we will discover a Rounder is REAL!? Or are you afraid we will discover a Rounder is FAKE? Either way,

THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE

[Marc Garlasco]

SEBA,

The guy at ISU that Tom worked with put my request to test militaria up on a SEM listserve. I have been inundated by guys in the NY/NJ/CT area wanting to do it! So while I say we keep our appointment at Staten Island there may be an opportunity for something earlier than Feb. I will see if there is any availability the week after the Union show.

Marc

[Brian S]

I got into the wrong business. Original paint, dies and silver sheet is available today? Results in unique fingerprint to Juncker, unique to K&Q. What was I thinking in the sixties over there? OK, beer and frauleins...

I doubt it...

[Brian S]

Attention naysayers: The BOTTOM LINE is this is worthwhile research and should be done. Should we keep our eyes closed to science because of fear?

It is worthwhile and it will create baselines. To what extent and to what value will be determined but any positive contribution is a good step forward.

[WARLORD]

The testing is a posative help, but it must be kept in mind that it should not be the sole determinator. As I have pointed out with the items found in Isreal, a whole industrie was created on these antiques that now grace most of the GREAT MUSEUMS. Sience was the prover of the fakes being original.

[tom hansen]

The testing is a posative help, but it must be kept in mind that it should not be the sole determinator. As I have pointed out with the items found in Isreal, a whole industrie was created on these antiques that now grace most of the GREAT MUSEUMS. Sience was the prover of the fakes being original.

I think everyone is in agreement that this would not be considered a sole factor in determining authenticity. This test is simply to determine if the componants are period componants. That information, coupled with appearance and comparison with other known standards, will be unbeatable. It can and will be one of several factors. Again, the big advantage we have here is comparison with KNOWN standards. What does this do?

1. Reduces some of the hysteria regarding restrikes of RKs such as the K&Q. Let us assume that the dies for the K&Q survived the war and WERE sold to some guy in California (RUMOR!). Where the hell would this guy get 1940s paint and silver sheet, not to mention the correct alloy mix for the rhoidum frosting? That is not to mention the technical ablity to form and finish the cross. I for one am completely comfortable with the K&Q now, whereas before I was not. Also, prior to the use of this technique, why would the faker feel compelled to go to the trouble to find period materials, which would be tough, if not impossible, when there would be no ability at the time to determine whether they were period or not?

2. Gives us insight into manufacturing process. The SEM can analyze paint thickness, elemental composition, alloy composition, plating composition and thickness, and determine the elemental compostion of the solder as well. This will tell us if different makers used the same paint, silver sheet, solder, frosting mix and if there were any special topical treatments to their particular cross. We know now so far that the pigment for the black core is "bone black" made from animal bones. We also know about rhodium frosting. We know that the silver content may be higher than stated on the frame and that the distribution of silver is not uniform in the alloy frame.

3. Potentially allows us to "match" unknown makers to known makers by matching componants. This will be tougher. However, it is possible that we will find some unique trace metal or componant, such as a unique frosting composition, on one maker that may define that particular maker, allowing us to fingerprint that maker and make further comparisons with unknown manufacturers, such as the rounder or 3/4 ring.

4. DETER FAKERS. Now if you are a faker and suddenly realize that your wares are going to be matched at an elemental level to known period pieces, does that make you a happy guy? Currently their job difficulty has been increased exponentially and will probably dissuade the appearance of some new fakes. I wonder how many new "dotted DKiGs" we will see now? How about "new variant" RKs? It will be a hell of alot tougher now. Also, dealers who sell pieces that are determined to be not of period materials will have a little explaining to do. If non-period material pieces are sold by them, where did they get them? Do they have other pieces from that supplier? A dealers credibility will be at stake. I do not think that anyone would jeopardize their buisness if it can be determined that they are dealing in pieces made from modern materials. Just that fear factor may help considerably.

5. Help people enjoy collecting more. This occurs from two factors. One fact is that collectors joy in this hobby is diminished or robbed by fakers. The doubt about pieces from a collector and financial standpoint steals some of the joy in collecting and learning about pieces. This will help restore some confidence in collecting. It is kind of like knowing that your particular currency is authentic and the citizens have confidence that they are not flooded with counterfeit money. Secondly, this opens a new facet to those that enjoy the technical aspects of collecting with regard to analysis. I am sure that someone will come up with a better means of analysis and we can learn about these processes as well as we go along. I was completely ignorant of SEM, but now know a little about it now- that is fun in of itself.