DKiG "dotted" Zimmermann "20"

[BobI]

I am glad these are finally considered original again, many of us knew they were wartime original for decades!
Best Wishes,
Bob

[blind pew]

Just look at the one in this thread: that is an wartime original.

There are so many indicators that the dotted is original, I am not willing to list them all again.
But the good thing is this: if you don't believe in them, don't buy them. It is that easy!

The one shown in the thread is a Zimmerman, not a Klein.

When the wreaths of Zimmermans and Kleins are identical, why are there no spotted Klein DKiGs if these are wartime? Do you debate the fact that Klein and Zimmerman wreaths are identical? Why are they all mint? Particularly when the Zimmerman shop was bombed, why would Klein then not simply take over the wartime production of the spotted DKiGs, making them quite common? If they shared wreaths (which they did), they probably would have had many spotted wreaths with which to continue production.

After the Zimmerman bombing, there was only a two months of war left. Do you really think that they made new dies (identical, but with spots) in a jiffy, whipped up a few thousand, and had them already for the last two months of the war?

Why didn't Juncker or Deschler put spots on thier 1941 dates?

Where are the spotted DKiS awards?

All of this "wartime" designation is based on ONE GUY saying he had a spotted cross from Klessheim? What if that one guy was Brian Williams?

Who declared these original and the "science settled"? It sounds like the global warming crowd.

[Darrell]

Tom you just can't get over it can you?

[George L]

+1 As far as different dies go, and costs, go check out Juncker luft badges...they had at least 3 different eagles, and while it's a different firm, it's just one example where this happened not once, but at least twice.

Just look at the one in this thread: that is an wartime original.

There are so many indicators that the dotted is original, I am not willing to list them all again.
But the good thing is this: if you don't believe in them, don't buy them. It is that easy!

[Wolfgang Schwar]

Zimmermann DKiG.

Collecting 3rd Reich awards seems like a real science.I have two Gold Crosses.One marked (2) junker & another marked (4) S & L.Construction looks a o.k to me.I also have one post war copy & there is just no comparison to the real deal.

[Ralljg52]

Dotted Zimmermann 20

Just look at the one in this thread: that is an wartime original.

There are so many indicators that the dotted is original, I am not willing to list them all again.
But the good thing is this: if you don't believe in them, don't buy them. It is that easy!

Hi Guys , just a quick friendly question directed at Dietrich Maerz.
I wonder Dietrich if you could take the time and would be kind enough to answer why you think this particular Cross is war time genuine , in your very informative book on the German Cross you state on page 205 that this particular style late war Zimmermann Cross was stamped with a different stamp than the other accepted examples. And that this stamp is unique in that the upper part of the numeral is missing and that the distance between the 2 and the 0 is also larger than is the case with the accepted numerals.
Clearly this Cross shown by Mel is different to the one you describe in your book , I am not saying for an instance that this is not genuine and that it could be another style of Cross but a more detailed response from you with your vast knowledge would be very much appreciated.

Colin

[Dietrich Maerz]

The book was written in 2009 and obviously reflects the knowledge of that time. Since then the research didn't stop and now, nearly six years later, more is known. That is the reason I have my magazine, The International Militaria Collector, to inform interested collectors about the latest development about the hobby.
There you would find articles about the dotted cross with the 11 o'clock flaw and the "regular" stamp. These are things which are very hard to discuss away, in addition to one typical Klessheim find.

Why didn't Juncker or Deschler put spots on thier 1941 dates?

Where are the spotted DKiS awards?

All of this "wartime" designation is based on ONE GUY saying he had a spotted cross from Klessheim? What if that one guy was Brian Williams?

Who declared these original and the "science settled"? It sounds like the global warming crowd.

The questions you put forward are completely irrelevant to the topic. What is relevant are the pieces itself. There was a time the "half-punched 20" was disputed as fake. Then dotted crosses with the regular "20" showed up. Then it was asked, why no dotted has the wreath with the 11 o'clock flaw. Then dotted crosses with the flaw showed up. Then it was argued that none have been found with a believable Klessheim find - then that showed up.
Now the question is why Juncker didn't dot their date?

We can speculate about such questions ad infinitum and come up with even more esoteric ones.
But what can be done to help the cause is present the evidence and let the people decide. Enough orders and medals of the Third Reich have been "bad-mouthed" by people putting forward strange questions or used the argument "The Germans would never do that."

And I say it again: no need to buy the cross, but also no need to bad-mouth it without any serious counter arguments to the actual findings. It is not wise to argue that one would have seen everything when the reality shows that there is always something new coming up.

[Thomas Durante]

Collecting 3rd Reich awards seems like a real science.I have two Gold Crosses.One marked (2) junker & another marked (4) S & L.Construction looks a o.k to me.I also have one post war copy & there is just no comparison to the real deal.

Hi Wolfgang,

Would love to see pics of your S&L-marked cross if you have the time.

Thanks

Tom

[Ralljg52]

The book was written in 2009 and obviously reflects the knowledge of that time. Since then the research didn't stop and now, nearly six years later, more is known. That is the reason I have my magazine, The International Militaria Collector, to inform interested collectors about the latest development about the hobby.
There you would find articles about the dotted cross with the 11 o'clock flaw and the "regular" stamp. These are things which are very hard to discuss away, in addition to one typical Klessheim find.




The questions you put forward are completely irrelevant to the topic. What is relevant are the pieces itself. There was a time the "half-punched 20" was disputed as fake. Then dotted crosses with the regular "20" showed up. Then it was asked, why no dotted has the wreath with the 11 o'clock flaw. Then dotted crosses with the flaw showed up. Then it was argued that none have been found with a believable Klessheim find - then that showed up.
Now the question is why Juncker didn't dot their date?

We can speculate about such questions ad infinitum and come up with even more esoteric ones.
But what can be done to help the cause is present the evidence and let the people decide. Enough orders and medals of the Third Reich have been "bad-mouthed" by people putting forward strange questions or used the argument "The Germans would never do that."

And I say it again: no need to buy the cross, but also no need to bad-mouth it without any serious counter arguments to the actual findings. It is not wise to argue that one would have seen everything when the reality shows that there is always something new coming up.

Hi Dietrich

Many thanks for taking the time to explain , your answers make a lot of sense and make me feel a lot happier , and thanks for letting me know about your magazine.
PS it was not me that asked the other irrelevant questions.

Colin

[BobI]

Many of us have vet purchased these over the years. I have had worn examples too!
Best Wishes,
Bob

[George L]

Same here, please!

Hi Wolfgang,

Would love to see pics of your S&L-marked cross if you have the time.

Thanks

Tom

[IVAN]

Hi,

about variants , later or earlier types of German Crosses I think we have again a lot of to learn.....how many years did we believe these dotted types were fakes ? now are originals .....

I am sure that will come out the true about multi rivets early type ...not only Deschler has done it, but godet too, I am sure....you will see.....

[Euronymous]

"After the Zimmerman bombing, there was only a two months of war left. Do you really think that they made new dies (identical, but with spots) in a jiffy, whipped up a few thousand, and had them already for the last two months of the war?"

It's clear that CF Zimmermann no longer exists after bombardments. Pforzheim was a city in ruin !! Impossible to rebuild a whole city (90% destroyed) and restart a factory in so little time.