S&L SC in silber

[Leroy]

And the obverses:

[Norm F]

Hansgünter - Here are the reverses of the cross I posted earlier (which you believed was a Souval) and the silver cross just posted (which you also believe is a Souval). Do you have an opinion as to which one was made first? Thanks!

That's a good question but hard to answer. The pin on the cut-out swastika version looks later than the wide pin with the "post-war scrape". However, the cut-out swastika and finish makes the planchet with the 1960's pin setup look earlier, while the the solid swastika and ca 1970's-like finish make the other look later.

It's hard to know what parts may be mixed and matched over the years but maybe the cut-out swaz planchet is earlier than the solid swaz planchet but the hardware on the cut-out swaz is later than the other. And the finish on the solid swaz version could have been applied by Souval/Umlauf anytime after the fact (ca 1970's?). That's the problem with trying to come up with a timeline for Souval's varied post-war output.

And that's if the solid-swaz example is even made by Souval rather than S&L...

Best regards,
---Norm

[AlikN]

..... Does the "C" type frame have the dent row too?
.....

....@Tom: Yes, the C-Type also has the dent row.

This proves that the dent row is a scratch-damage to the mother hub, which was impressed first into the working die B and later into the working die C.

...Or repair theory believers think that the same die was repaired again,
I think if they would repair that die again, they would fix the dent row also.

[Brian S]

The dent row was on the Mother


Tom

Remember late February is Slapsgiving at the SOS.

[Brian S]

Dies can stamp out many many thousands of imprints before showing signs of degradation.

How many RK's guys? And how many would S&L conceivably have had to stamp out before war's end? Maybe 5,000?

That's nothing to a die.

But S&L screwed up somehow. Too much pressure dialed in. FAULT in original die. Poor material in die.

But still S&L knew they only had to stamp out a limited number of RK frames.

Absolutely never was any reason to a have a mother die from day one for an RK. The anticipated number of crosses would NEVER have presumed such a need.

That's the reality of the RKs. The "science" of dies just doesn't apply here with regard to mother daughter dies for this particular application.

[Brian S]

This proves that the dent row is a scratch-damage to the mother hub, which was impressed first into the working die B and later into the working die C.

You are exactly backwards. It's a dent on the output frame therefore a bump on the die. And practically invisible to the eye.

A "mother" die would not conceivably have these bumps. A die is routed out. The bumps make no sense on a mother die.

[Thomas Durante]

You are exactly backwards. It's a dent on the output frame therefore a bump on the die. And practically invisible to the eye.

A "mother" die would not conceivably have these bumps. A die is routed out. The bumps make no sense on a mother die.

No Brian, respectfully you are the one that is backwards! Alikn has it exactly right.

A mother die looks exactly like an RK frame, it has raised beading. The daughter die is the one that is routed out, it is a negative image. So when you understand this, then you can see how the mother die can be damaged by a file or something similar that creates a dent in the beading.

When the daughter die is created, it will have a dent row that is raised because it is a negative image. So when you use this daughter to create an actual RK frame you get the dent row that is sunken.

Or more simply:

Mother die = dent row is sunken
Daughter die = dent row is raised
RK Frame = dent row is sunken

Tom

[Leroy]

...And that's if the solid-swaz example is even made by Souval rather than S&L...

---Norm

Good observation.

[Legion Condor]

Hello,

I think these are the pieces with closed swastika after 1970, perhaps even very young. The needle system is not exactly as in the known early pieces.

The pieces are perhaps not even Soval. I have a suspicion it might even be a Soval copy.

In Kassel on the last exhibition you could buy these pieces. Even with diamonds. I was in his hand.

The play what you've shown Leroy, I think 60 years.

Greeting LC

Hans Günter

[Brian S]

No Brian, respectfully you are the one that is backwards! Alikn has it exactly right.

A mother die looks exactly like an RK frame, it has raised beading. The daughter die is the one that is routed out, it is a negative image. So when you understand this, then you can see how the mother die can be damaged by a file or something similar that creates a dent in the beading.

When the daughter die is created, it will have a dent row that is raised because it is a negative image. So when you use this daughter to create an actual RK frame you get the dent row that is sunken.

Or more simply:

Mother die = dent row is sunken
Daughter die = dent row is raised
RK Frame = dent row is sunken

Tom

OK, I am no die expert. (and apparently neither are any of you) But explain if you will why there would be a mother die for a limited run RK frame?????????

[Norm F]

But explain if you will why there would be a mother die for a limited run RK frame?

I think this is just a matter of routine. For any award a positive master die is produced which is never used for the production of the final award. It's used to make the working dies.

In the coin minting literature we see the following steps:

1. Design approved
2. Plaster model - 12 to 15 inches in diameter (positive)
3. Plaster model epoxy coated (galvano)
4. Reducing machine used to produce actual size steel master hub (positive)
5. Master hub produces master dies (negative)
6. Master dies produce working hubs (positive)
7. Working hubs produce working dies (negative)
8. Working dies produce coins

But of course that's for huge volumes. It's possible there were all those steps for high volume awards (wound badges?), but I would expect for more limited awards you could eliminate steps 5 and 6 and simply make working dies from the master hub. That's what I would expect for the RK frame and seems to fit with what Tom suggested in post #112, although he called the master hub the "mother die" (positive) and the working die the "daughter die" (negative).

For badges, I assume a die supplier such as Paul Wissmann, Pforzheim would keep his master hub and generate dies from this to supply his customer companies such as S&L. Or maybe he'd even keep master dies and/or working hubs made from his master hub, and only sell working dies, thus giving his master die an added procedural layer of protection.

Interesting discussion.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Legion Condor]

Hello,

I will try the Monday times Master of S & L to speak. I'll ask him what is safest for a RK. Or what is his opinion on the production of tools.

Greeting LC

Hans Günter

[Thomas Durante]

But explain if you will why there would be a mother die for a limited run RK frame?????????

Brian, here is a good video of how dies are made, start at around 3:50:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0gR9Fn5qsQ

I don't think it mattered much to die makers whether they were making a die for an RK or a Wound badge, I think the process would be exactly the same.

Tom

[Alex W.]

Here are three of my Souval Spanish Crosses. I have many more of them as I collect these pieces, never the less these three should give a good impression about the rough differences.
The silver one has the wing ends soldered onto the cross. It has the swastika not cut out. It also has the tapering pin.
The Souval non-cut out pieces were earlier made than the cut out ones. Both types were made by Souval. Souval used much of St&L's hardware during their production.
The golden one is an early-mid 1960's produced piece with cut-out swastika and non soldered wing tips. L/58 marked.
Last one of the group is the SC with Diamonds. The Souval variant used white saphires instead of diamonds. It also uses a St&L pin with closed hinge block. It's L/58 marked.

Best regards,
Alex

[Thomas Durante]

I think these are the pieces with closed swastika after 1970, perhaps even very young. The needle system is not exactly as in the known early pieces.

Hans, this can't be right because the Spanish Cross from the souvenier sample board has closed swastika (which allegedly are from the immediate postwar period).

And when you look at the silver cross posted by Leroy with the cutout swastika, it has such believable detail, finish, patina and nicely-detailed swastika cutouts that it could easily be argued as "wartime-compatible" if it only had a wartime pin. The fact that it carries a 1960/70s type pin is the only red flag.

I think all this supports the original premise that wartime-compatible hardware, base metals and finishes lasted many, many decades into the postwar period and was mixed with leftover and newly produced planchets.

Tom