S&L SC in silber

[Brian S]

The answer is really only a google away... Countless sites about die repair and the materials used and how they evolved. Very sophisticated materials were available in 1940.

[Legion Condor]

Hi Guys,

today I have a friend of mine asked for the tools. He's tools and molds producer.
He knows my passion with decorations. The problem I have explained it with the broken tools.

The repair is always very possible if the material to be embossed is not too hard. So soft metal.
With hard metal repair is a problem. The material for the repair is never as hard as the stamp Material.Auch provide the correct repair is a good mark and maker's no problem. Can provide small might remain, but the do not disturb really because they are very small.

In our case, he says there is no problem, since only silver, brass, zinc, etc. is used. Since holding a repair very long until it breaks again or get damage.

I hope my English is enough that you understand what I write.

[Brian S]

Mother-daughter dies around at least since 1870's. No problem. But if the die with the dent row is a daughter die, explain the dent row.

[Dietrich Maerz]

In our case, he says there is no problem, since only silver, brass, zinc, etc. is used. Since holding a repair very long until it breaks again or get damage.

And that is exactly what happened with the B-Type die in the area of the beading flaws. They developed again at the same spots, but in a different initial pattern.
Another thing are the extremly minute flaws, lines, dents, .. which are present on the A- and the B-type. And they do "age" compared to each other, meaning the minute flaws on the B-Type are less pronaunced as they are on the A-Type. They can't be reproduced in that style from a (flawed ) mother die and it should be clear to everybody that a so-called "mother die" is not aging.

There is another thing: if it is true - as it is reported - that S&L made all the dies for the EKs for other companies why are they different? If the "mother die procedure" would have worked (as is believed) all EKs should be the same. They are not.

Dietrich

[Leroy]

What was welded?

[Andreas Klein]

There is another thing: if it is true - as it is reported - that S&L made all the dies for the EKs for other companies why are they different? If the "mother die procedure" would have worked (as is believed) all EKs should be the same. They are not.

No one said all dies ... it's reported and proven that they were the biggest producer of the IC tools for other firms.

It's also reported that the daughter of the mother got some handfinish of the engraver in the final conrol, so differences are logical.

And finally the the cut out tool for the IC was done by the production firm itself. So all at all you get an S&L cross with more or less differences.

[Thomas Durante]

Another thing are the extremly minute flaws, lines, dents, .. which are present on the A- and the B-type. And they do "age" compared to each other, meaning the minute flaws on the B-Type are less pronaunced as they are on the A-Type. They can't be reproduced in that style from a (flawed ) mother die and it should be clear to everybody that a so-called "mother die" is not aging.

Dietrich, a mother die can age in my opinion.

Each time a daughter die is made from a mother, it will create a small amount of wear on the mother die. A daughter die is a big block of softened steel that is pressed hard onto the mother die to form the imprint. I imagine this takes tons of pressure to create a nice mirror image in the daughter and this must have some affect on the mother, even if very small. This seems perfectly logical and in line with your findings of "minute flaws on the B-Type are less pronounced on the A-Type".

Not only does the mother-daughter die theory make logical sense, it also fits the narrative that has been put forth regarding S&L production because it proves that the B-Type Crosses are after the A-Type because the minute flaws you see on the B-type are less pronounced, so the B Die must have been created after the A when the mother was a little more worn down.

Tom

[Thomas Durante]

But if the die with the dent row is a daughter die, explain the dent row.

The dent row was on the Mother

I say this because I think it is nearly impossible to create such a feature as the dent row on a daughter die but very easy to create it on the mother.

My suggestion is that someone simply hit the mother with a file or something similar by accident creating the dent row on the mother after the A die was created but before the B die. So all daughter dies after that would have had the dent row. That is another way to prove that the A came before B so the narrative still makes sense.

All this should be easy to verify. Does the "C" type frame have the dent row too? And do the minute flaws Dietrich sees weaker on the C type frames compared with the B type? If answer is both yes then I think that proves the mother/daughter die theory and that the mother aged after each daughter die was created.

It might be as easy as ABC

Tom

[Dietrich Maerz]

It's also reported that the daughter of the mother got some handfinish of the engraver in the final conrol, so differences are logical.

If you look at some EKs of the tiem it is reported you will see differences which cannot be attributed to hand finishing, complete different dies.
With the A- and B-Type the die is identical down to features smaller then 0.1 mm, with the EK all over sudden the hand-finishing was so extensive that even the beading changed?

But it is of no matter to me since it has no effect on the time line of the S&L RKs.

@Tom: Yes, the C-Type also has the dent row.

[mpiering]

Maybe the following Spanish Crosses fit in this discussion - what's your opinion?

[mpiering]

silver SC

[mpiering]

I also have 2 KVK 1st Class with this pin and hingeblock - but this time with Souval postwar catch.

The first:

[mpiering]

second

[Legion Condor]

hello,

I think that is all for Soval post-war pieces!

Gruß LC

Hansgünter

[Leroy]

Hansgünter - Here are the reverses of the cross I posted earlier (which you believed was a Souval) and the silver cross just posted (which you also believe is a Souval). Do you have an opinion as to which one was made first? Thanks!