S&L SC in silber

[Leroy]

Brian,

I mean over the last broadcast I of the 1942nd

But I am of the opinion that this is not important. I know what you want to say. LDO etc.

But that's not the point. The needle is simply used. And 4 is simply already on the needle. The need to SPK was not so high that one has an extra needle ordered.

Exactly correct!

[Legion Condor]

[Brian S]

And, yet, there are SO many with "4" aren't there? No Junckers... No Zimmermans... No Deumers... At least I haven't seen them.

[Brian S]

What's the date of this document Hans? November, 1939? Pre-PKZ?

[Legion Condor]

Brian,

only to put it right. The latest document I have is from April 20 1941st
But as I said, in my opinion nothing to do with this case. In other cases, very important.

[Legion Condor]

What's the date of this document Hans? November, 1939? Pre-PKZ?

Jes!

[Legion Condor]

And, yet, there are SO many with "4" aren't there? No Junckers... No Zimmermans... No Deumers... At least I haven't seen them.

Brian,

you're right! But those who have not used the needle systems from the Spanish Cross for other awards. So far as I know.

But what S & L has made the other manufacturers do not have to do it.

The fact is that you can not find another bronze SPK S & L. The pieces with only 4 and eagles are correct, too After War pieces. Another distinction does not exist. And we'll find no pieces in bronze with only L / 16th

The real Silver with the other needle are used only with L / 16. This is also a safe point. But important pieces have a different needle. Then only with L / 16

[Legion Condor]

So, good night! Now is 3:15 clock I tired!

[Brian S]

OK if I concede it is possible for S&L to have the only PKZ pieces, for a very very limited purpose, how do we concretely ID them?

[AlikN]

That is not the case in reality. The A- and B-Type die for the RK is the same die, but repaired.

Dietrich, I respectfully disagree with the repair theory. I don't see how one can repair such extensive damage on such a small, intricate feature like RK beading without any traces at all of the repair. For me this is evidence of two working dies that are nearly identical to eachother, but the process of creating each from a master (mother) creates the small differences we see, such as the dent row. But again, this is just my opinion and observations.

This is my opinion also, first off all there was nothing to repair on the die in the area of the dent row, second (if we assume that it was repaired) in every other places where on late A frames we see heavy flaws, was repaired without any trace and place where were there was no flaws has a repair trace - not likely. Third and very important is a knee flaws, if it would be the same die, those flaws would stay in the same places, but they are different in A and B dies.

B die is made by the same mother die which was damaged already at the time of making the B die, and I tried this scratch test on hard metal(file) ...it is on page 12 of this thread. And this exactly what the dent row looks like a scratch to hard metal and not in any way looks like a welding splatter.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...6l+file&page=9

...see you guys at the SOS, ...we can talk more about it ............

[Brian S]

It's not that there was anything to repair at the dent row, it is simply very small splatter that happened in that area.

[AlikN]

So according to the repaired die theory, they did such a good and very detailed job of fixing every flaw without any trace and didn't bother to use those abilities to fix the dent row or what you call a welding splatter?

Can someone show me the equipment - tools that left that microscopic splatter, and was able to weld hard steel, or fill flaws in hard steel on a such microscopic level and leave no trace of welding or cleaning of any kind?

It is much more simple than a repaired die with a welding splatter.

There is a mother hub which is "positive image" just like a stamped out frame,
and working die "negative image" , when working die A became useless due to all the cracks,
mother hub used again to make a new working die B, only in that point in time mother hub's hard steel bidding got scratched - damaged just like the picture of that file on page12 of earlier mentioned thread, and that scratch got impressed into the new working die B. The difference in a knee flaws also proves existence of more than one die.

[Brian S]

So you've answered your own question, proven to yourself what you believe Some of us might still choose to believe otherwise.

[Norm F]

Hi Guys,

I know this is a digression from the S&L Spanish Cross, but this question of whether or not a hardened steel obverse die with fine detail can be repaired or not has come up countless times in the forum, frustratingly with no answer so far -- just opinions on either side like described here based on different interpretations of what one sees in the awards.

With 25,000 members on WAF, it's amazing to me that that there are no tool and die workers who can answer this question. If I remember correctly (and I may not be) I thought Gordon Williamson once said he had some experience in the tool and die area and more often than not the die was discarded in favour of making a new one from the hub because of the difficulty in repairing hardened steel. Honestly I couldn't swear that my memory is sound on that point, but surely someone on WAF or their friends can definitively answer this question.

Searching the internet, I found one reference on coin collecting which reported the assumption that a U.S. Lincoln penny die from 1922 was repaired and put back into use, but that resulted in the complete absence of a "D" minting mark on the penny, so the final product was not like the original. And even there, the assumption was based upon observation rather than known facts.

Where are all our tool and die experts?

Bestr regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

...see you guys at the SOS, ...we can talk more about it ............

This doesn't help me since I'm stuck in a country whose currency value is fading fast!

Best regards,
---Norm