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**Thomas Durante** · 01-21-2015, 06:12 AM

Hi Hansgunter,

The cross you show has a wartime S&L setup in my opinion. The hinge is the wartime type, as well as the pin (notice the "dimple" tool mark at the top of the pin, that is consistent with S&L's wartime pins and what I call the "wartime dimple".). The catch is also wartime for me, commonly found on many S&L wartime badge from early war to late war (S&L IABs, PABs, CCCs, EK1s, etc.). A few other wartime makers used this catch as well, so I think we can safely say this setup is wartime.

Now, does that make this cross a wartime-produced cross? Not at all IMO. It could very well be a postwar made cross utilizing a leftover wartime hinge, pin and catch. We see this on the very first 1957er badges, the earliest known examples can somtimes be found using leftover wartime hardware.

I don't discount the possibility that this might be a wartime cross, but it could also very likely be a postwar cross using leftover wartime hardware. All I think we can say for sure is that the hardware on this cross is wartime IMO.

Tom

**Legion Condor** · 01-21-2015, 07:28 AM

Hi Tom,

ok! Explain it to me please why this 100% post-cross-body has an original War needle system.
And the silver of this post is a 100% original cross-body with a post-war needle system.

I am of the opinion that this can not entirely agree. And no logical explanation.

Here the cross from the front. I think you can clearly see that this piece is a post-war production. I could prove very many points without problem.

I think because they can not find a logical explanation and it turns some into question what we know about needle systems of S & L.

Greeting LC

Hansgünter

**Legion Condor** · 01-21-2015, 07:47 AM

Here's a piece compared to the contribution pieces. This is the typical post-war piece in silver. This needle setup is 100% Post-War and the cross-body also. Good to see the triangle (Cap error) on the head. All post-war piece got this error.

Have a few pictures taken!

S & L is much food for us to give up always think, and I think we will not resolve 100%.

I do not want to change your mind, just give special new material for entertainment.

What do they say?

Gruß LC

Hansgünter

**Thomas Durante** · 01-21-2015, 08:20 AM

Originally posted by Legion Condor View Post

Explain it to me please why this 100% post-cross-body has an original War needle system.
And the silver of this post is a 100% original cross-body with a post-war needle system.

For sure an interesting question, but there is a reasonable and simple explanation. We know that S&L had leftover wartime hardware as late as the 1970s, and I can show a Para badge that was reportedly made by S&L at that time with believable wartime hardware. And lets not forget Andreas & Basti's find from Deschler and Carl Wild showing many thousands of leftover wartime hinges and catches that were still in their possession in 2013. So we have evidence of plenty of leftover hardware that was mixed with postwar-made hardware to make badges in the postwar period (both 1957ers and postwar swastika-bearing fakes).

Also the very real possibility that S&L possibly used two different dies for the eagles on their Spain Crosses. Just look at S&L RKs, Luftwaffe Para badges, etc and you find evidence that S&L used multiple, nearly exactly identical dies. These came from the same mother die and therefore create multiple working dies that are 99% identical to eachother, but with a few tiny differences.

So for me this opens the door to the possibility that there are unflawed Spanish Crosses that are possibly wartime. Then you have a flaw develop on eagle head (and these badges could also be wartime, but also probably postwar too!). At this point S&L switched to a new, nearly identical die to continue to make badges in the postwar period. Isn't that the same scenario we have for S&L RKs? Unflawed A type, then flawed A-type then switch to B-type which is nearly identical? This is certainly what we see on their Luftwaffe Para badges and I can show some compares tonight when I am home from work.

Tom

**Legion Condor** · 01-21-2015, 08:24 AM

Hi Tom,

would be very happy to see more and learn.

See you tonight!

Greeting LC

Hans Günter

**Dietrich Maerz** · 01-21-2015, 08:46 AM

These came from the same mother die and therefore create multiple working dies that are 99% identical to each other, but with a few tiny differences.

That is not the case in reality. The A- and B-Type die for the RK is the same die, but repaired. The have differences in larger areas (dent row), but have a lot of extremely tiny communalities which could never be reproduced by the process of a "mother die." Additionally, these tiny flaws and fingerprints do "age" over the timeline from early A- to very late post-war B-Type. A mother die doesn't age.

**Thomas Durante** · 01-21-2015, 09:11 AM

Originally posted by Dietrich Maerz View Post

That is not the case in reality. The A- and B-Type die for the RK is the same die, but repaired.

Dietrich, I respectfully disagree with the repair theory. I don't see how one can repair such extensive damage on such a small, intricate feature like RK beading without any traces at all of the repair. For me this is evidence of two working dies that are nearly identical to eachother, but the process of creating each from a master (mother) creates the small differences we see, such as the dent row. But again, this is just my opinion and observations.

I don't wish to go off on a tangent about this, and I am fine using the word "repair" rather than new die for sake of discussion here. So in the case with these Spanish Crosses, we have the possibility that the eagle started off unflawed. They eventually became flawed.....then were "repaired" to remove the head flaw to continue production in the postwar years. Is this scenario plausible?

Tom

**Dietrich Maerz** · 01-21-2015, 09:47 AM

I don't know whether that is plausible wit the eagle. I have not studied it.

(I will explain the failure of the mother die theory at the SOS over a nice dinner. And I am 100% sure you will agree, based on brutal and undeniable physical evidence.)

**Leroy** · 01-21-2015, 09:49 AM

Is not the "cap" to which Hans Gunter refers caused by actual damage to the eagle die (in essence a "hole" in the die, as opposed to debris accumulation)? Is such a "hole" repairable in a hardened steel die?

**Legion Condor** · 01-21-2015, 09:56 AM

Hi Tom,

here another proof was not repaired the fault of the head. This piece of what I see now also has the head and error comes about from 197 to 80 years. He has the same needle system like the silver piece which I have shown.

This Bronze also has the needle system as the silver from my collection.

Any piece of my groups, and also from other groups do not have this error. Brian also has a very nice piece of real silver. This also has no error on the head.

One can very well see that the pieces are all from the same tool. They are only getting worse.

Below the images.

Greeting LC

Hansgünter

**Thomas Durante** · 01-21-2015, 09:59 AM

Originally posted by Leroy View Post

Is such a "hole" repairable in a hardened steel die?

That is my question too Gentry with regards to the "repair" theory. If you have a raised flaw on the beading of an RK, it is created from a crack in the hardened steel die. I don't believe something like this can be repaired with no trace at all, but I am certainly looking forward to Dietrich explaining it to me over dinner.

Looking forward to it as always Dietrich.

Grenadier, would you please post some detailed closeups of the eagles on your example?

Thanks

Tom

**Dietrich Maerz** · 01-21-2015, 10:14 AM

If you search in this very forum you will find enough thread tackling this topic. Dies have been repaired and are still repaired day in day out. Would not know what is so incredible difficult about that - men flew to the moon but can't fix a hole?

But the repaired or non-repaired die is only important in the context of B-Types being early pre-LDO Knights Crosses, something Nimmergut and Geissler promoted and sold over the decades.
If one stays with the awarded and proven crosses, it doesn't matter anymore - the timeline is clear.

**Legion Condor** · 01-21-2015, 10:26 AM

Here is a 100% original from a group. They are compared to see the pieces all came from the same mold. Especially the eagle shows the many places.

I think it will be made easy with the needle systems at S & L.

We have here in my opinion the facts to be also something different than the old opinions.

Greeting LC

Hansgünter

**Thomas Durante** · 01-21-2015, 10:29 AM

Originally posted by Dietrich Maerz View Post

Would not know what is so incredible difficult about that - men flew to the moon but can't fix a hole?

Fixing the hole isn't the problem, its fixing the broken die so there is absolutely no trace at all of the repair is where I have a problem, fall of the wagon and start crying.

Road potholes are fixed every day, but there is always signs of the repair.

Tom

**Dietrich Maerz** · 01-21-2015, 10:40 AM

Well, you have your opinion based on street repair - I have mine based on microscopic investigation. Let's stop here, it is only a battle of words for show.

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