1939 Grand Cross

[Andy Mac]

I have been looking throgh manions on line auctions, Goerings Cross for just over $3100, could this be true? I thought the whereabouts unknown.
anyone got any comments on manions auctions anyone had trouble?
Andy Mac

[Andy Mac]

Sorry, $31000 not $3100. (Ithink I need new Glasses)
Andy Mac

[Dez H]

Hello Andy

Could you show us the picture?
So few of us here are privileged paying members of manions anymore.


Regards

Dez

[Tim C]

Hi Andy,

I have been stung by Manions before. While I am sure there is a lot of great gear on their site, you cannot rely on them to weed out fakes.

Regards,
Tim

[Mark S.]

Andy, it would behoove you to type in 'manions' as a search here on the forum. These guys have been discussed in depth.

[C.C.Reilly]

1939 Grand Cross

Hi Andy,

I remember reading that Goering's original GC was destroyed in his Berlin residence during an allied air raid. Now Goering had many uniforms, suffice to say there were probably more than one GC.

George Petersen, a notable Luftwaffe historian and collector of many years, has a 1939 GC. A good period copy for sure, and likely worn by Goering at one time or another. I believe his selling price is $25,000.

[Dez H]

This thread may actually have some parrel to the thread recently started by Gordon. Was more than one manufacture involved in the production of the Grand Cross? Where did Reichsmarschall Goring obtain his copies from? Were they privately made by jewellers or authorized pieces produced from the LDO firms? My opinion/assumption on this is that there was never intended to be a large scale distribution of this award, i.e. 5 or 6 let’s say. So why would there need to be any more than one firm with one set of dies producing Grand Crosses? So only one firm should have ever made these pieces and that all pieces encountered today should be exactly the same. Thoughts? Opinions?


Regards

Dez

[AlikN]

GRAND CROSS

Here is the pictures of the Grand Cross from manions.com.

[AlikN]

GRAND CROSS

more pics

[AlikN]

GRAND CROSS

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[AlikN]

GRAND CROSS

markings

[AlikN]

GRAND CROSS

...last one

[Gordon Williamson]

There is no doubt that more than one firm were involved in making the Grand Cross, trouble is identifying who the "unknown" maker was. One of the variants I mentioned in the other thread, in blue case, was removed from Schloss Klissheim in 1945 with the German Crosses with Diamonds etc.

Unfortunately, the low award number factor doesn't really relate to the number of makers though it should be logical to assume it would. There are several makers of the Knights Cross of the War Merit Cross with only a very small number awarded, at least four, possibly more makers of the Oakleaves with Swords to the Knights Cross with only 160 awards. We have no way on knowing how many Grand Crosses would be issued if the war had gone Germany's way. I think it likely several would have been issued to the more successful Field Marshalls . Even that however, would still have been a relatively small number

Problem with the L/12 pieces as offered by manions is that they were restruck after the war by Juncker using the original tooling and are identical to the wartime pieces so I can't see how anyone can ever be certain a Juncker type was "real", and I very much doubt many of the original Grand Crosses in circulation were ever the property of Hermann Göring.

There was actually an article in a German publication a few years back showing the onyx centred replacement Göring had made after his award piece was destroyed. I believe there were two if memory serves me right, in a beautiful silver case with the Göring coat of arms. I still have that publication somewhere and will try to dig it out. I think the article was by Harald Geissler.

[Greg S]

Problem with the L/12 pieces as offered by manions is that they were restruck after the war by Juncker using the original tooling and are identical to the wartime pieces so I can't see how anyone can ever be certain a Juncker type was "real",

Gordon, I was under the impression that Juncker was destroyed and could not have used any original dies. I believe a fact that was mentioned was that only a KC made by Juncker could defineately be pre-1945. Does that only apply to the KC's?

[C.C.Reilly]

Juncker Crosses

Hi Greg,

I am aware the the Juncker dies for the Knights Cross were indicated destroyed in an air raid, but until now, I do not think the same reference has been made to the dies of the Grand Cross. I believe what Gordon has said about the Grand Cross is very interesting, expecially with the L/12 800 Juncker ones. I must admit, that if the Grand Cross dies survived destruction, then there would seem a reasonable doubt about the ones we see today.

Chris