Rk

[Leroy]

Chris - The Pelz example is a zinc-cored cross just by itself, with no O&S attached, but it does have attached the paper he attached to all his wartime pieces.

[Leroy]

Here it is, in the back, on the right. (Info from Pieter Verbruggen)

[90th Light]

Chris - The Pelz example is a zinc-cored cross just by itself, with no O&S attached, but it does have attached the paper he attached to all his wartime pieces.

Thanks Leroy,

for the clarification and the image.

In your experience, which ones have the stronger dent rows ?

Do the "935-4 and 800-4 crosses" have more dents or do the highly finished "zinc-cored crosses" have more ?

Chris

[Leroy]

Chris- There is, unfortunately, no simple answer to your question and the reason for this is two-fold: 1.) Because we have not seen enough examples, and 2.) Because we don't know exactly what happened in the finishing process.

The cross below, a "B" frame with no raised beading flaws, an iron core and a ring which bears a strong resemblance to the cross in the S&L catalog illustration, has 14 dents, 1 more than the 13 seen most of the time on 935-4 and 800-4 crosses. I have heard reports, from persons I respect, of crosses with 15 dents, but I was unable to inspect either of them in hand before they were sold, and had to rely on photos (which certainly seemed to confirm what I had been told). (Another interesting fact about the 14 dent cross is that it has the "post assembly overspray" - not first painting after assembly - to clean up blemishes after assembly, a process documented here for EKI's before and illustrated in Thayer's EK book).

There are, in my observation, different types of "B" crosses other than the "4" series crosses, with different types of finish, different material cores, different paint, and different frame material. One of these types is the cross which started this thread. Another is the kind (which has a readily identifiable type of paint and beautiful "matte" frosting) typified by the mint Baer and Klein crosses. The finely finished zinc-cored crosses of this latter type which I have personally handled typically have 12 or 11 very distinct dents. (The Baer cross, seen in good, large photos provided by Andreas Thies, appears to have more.) It is my conjecture that the "13-11" frames may have all been produced as part of the same "run". The 14 dent cross may have been some sort of "one-off" prototype or part of a even earlier run. None of us were there.

It was suggested to me some time ago by a distinguished RK collector that some effort may have been made at some point, as part of the finishing process, to "soften" the appearance of the dents (which he felt would have been regarded as "unsightly" by the "finishers" at S&L). This would not have been difficult at all for an experienced craftsman (which these people were), with a buffing tool. Just one "practiced pass" could have softened the appearance of the dents on a cross and we would never know what they looked like to start with. I don't know that this actually happened , but on crosses with slightly "reduced" dent rows, I have noticed what appears to be a "smoothing" of the nearby metal, as though it has received a fine polish. Again, none of us were there to see, but I have an uneasy feeling that "the dents" may not be as reliable an indicator of striking time as we think.

Most people I know in this hobby have never actually handled a "4" series cross. Even fewer have handled one of the types typified by the Baer and Klein crosses. I am constantly amazed how many people have opinions on things they have never actually studied or handled "in the flesh".

[Brian S]

It was suggested to me some time ago by a distinguished RK collector that some effort may have been made at some point, as part of the finishing process, to "soften" the appearance of the dents (which he felt would have been regarded as "unsightly" by the "finishers" at S&L). This would not have been difficult at all for an experienced craftsman (which these people were), with a buffing tool. Just one "practiced pass" could have softened the appearance of the dents on a cross and we would never know what they looked like to start with.

Again, none of us were there to see, but I have an uneasy feeling that "the dents" may not be as reliable an indicator of striking time as we think.

Exactly!!!

[Dietrich Maerz]

If the obvious deterioration of the dent row is not a measure of time resp. dies strikes performed, then the next question should or would be this:

- why have the known and accepted models 934-4 and 800-4 in nearly all cases a very sharp and non-buffed out dent row, under the very, very reasonable assumption that they both are the first B-Types and were shipped to the PKZ?
- why is the deteroration of the dent row later on going parallel to the development of the beading flaws (an accepted criteria of prolonged die use)?
- why is the detoriation of the dent row tied to the use of material which is in stark contrast to the last accepted models from S&L, meaning from 935 silver to 800 silver to Neusilber to zinc core?
- why - if the distinguisehd RK collector was right with his buffing theory - is this assumed buffing mainly present at crosses which do not have the otherwise very often mentioned criteria of "war time quality" (silver and painted frosting for example)

And one thing that really is puzzling to me is: How would one buff out a dent without leaving a bigger dent or depression? With all due respect, that does not make sense to me.

I truly think that the deterioration of the dent rown (also evidenced by the later 1957 models) can be used as a indication of die use. And use of a die is directly related to time - the longer the use the more time has passed. This is a very accepted theory with all other medals and badges and I have not heard one significant argument why it should not apply to the B-Types of S&L (when it is an accepted time criteria for K&Q RKs, as an example).

An example below: this should not be a heavily used die from which this Neusilber frame was stamped, when compared to the nearly pristine dent row of an 935-4 (I guess) shown earlier?

But before all hell brakes loose and I am accused of all kinds of malicous intents: If collector wants to buy B-Type crosses of all shapes and variations, they should do so. And if they think they are all war-time or early pre-LDO as Geissler asserts, good for them! The only thing that is necessary IMHO for them to know or realize is the well-founded controversy surrounding them. A controversy which is not of my making but rather a result of the post-war activities of S&L and a controversy which manifests itself in the striking of the models and in the use of materials.

Dietrich

[Brian S]

No one accused you of being malicious. Pedantic i believe. You cannot see that light buffing would smooth out the rough edges of 800 silver? No one said buff it down to zero. I know that goes against your closed case conclusion but some of us see possibilities beyond your conclusions. This isn't arguing with you but to some of us it is another possibility.

[Leroy]

I don't know of anyone who says all "B" crosses are wartime. In fact, I don't know of anyone who thinks that even as many as 10% are wartime. BUT I do know many (including many of the most pre-eminent RK collectors on this planet) who simply believe, based upon their own experiences and close observations, that you are mistaken and believe 100% that more than just the "4" series are wartime, including some of the non ferrous-cored examples.

No "hell" will break loose (at least from me). I'm done here.

[Dietrich Maerz]

The problem then is this: if less than 10% of the B-types (excluding the "4" marked types), say 8 or 7 %, are NOT post-war, how would one know that a specific cross is one of the under 10%?
I would think that the collectors in the know would have established measurable and reproduceable criteria.
But you are right, we should stop here and leave the field to the ones who know and the ones who are still looking. My advise is this: as long as it is not proven, be very carefull and rather err on the side of caution. You will be right more than 90% of the time, as just confirmed.


Dietrich

[Dietrich Maerz]

No one accused you of being malicious. Pedantic i believe. You cannot see that light buffing would smooth out the rough edges of 800 silver? No one said buff it down to zero. I know that goes against your closed case conclusion but some of us see possibilities beyond your conclusions. This isn't arguing with you but to some of us it is another possibility.

If I sound pedantic than I kindly ask you for forgivness. This is a discussion forum and we discuss things. Sure, I can see that some rough edges are smoothed down by buffing but the question remains why was it not done with the "4" models which were evidently delivered to the PKZ for awarding? Why not do it with the models which were ordered and paid for, which were made of silver and had the nicely painted frosting? Why only on models which would indicate a "later" based on materials used (and deterioration of dent row)?

Was it done on the dent row I posted earlier, the buffing I mean?

IMHO the comparison below (representative of all dent rows which I consider "later") does not show any buffing or smoothing out of any rough edges but rather a typical progression of loosing definition because of continued use of the die well after the "4" models. The "hills" in the die are reduced, leaving less and less indentations in the stamped frame. I think one can see that very nicely with the dents no. 9 -12.

And that is why I personally believe that the dent row is an indication of die use and can be used as a time line.

[Leroy]

I would think that the collectors in the know would have established measurable and reproduceable criteria.
Dietrich

Here's one. (Hint: The frame is not marked for silver content; the core is zinc; it has 11-12 - and sometimes more- dents; the suspension loop is marked '935'). If you get one just like this, "collectors in the know" will agree with you (at least 90% off the time). And if you remain nervous, I'm sure we can find someone who will be glad to take your place in line.

Now I leave it.

[Bob Hritz]

What about a cross that has more dents than the number 4 marked crosses?

Bob Hritz

[Dietrich Maerz]

Gentry, If this cross is in your collection I kindly ask you to send it to me. I would love to have a very close look at the paint and the dent row.

[Dietrich Maerz]

What about a cross that has more dents than the number 4 marked crosses?

Bob, logic without prejudging would tell me that such a cross is earlier than one with less dents - or with less pronounced dents. But I really would like to see a very close photo. Had I ever had that cross in hand?

[Leroy]

Gentry, If this cross is in your collection I kindly ask you to send it to me. I would love to have a very close look at the paint and the dent row.

This belongs to Andreas Klein. I wish it did belong to me.