Any Ideas on This Cross w/Swords (opinions appreciated) *

[Legion Condor]

Hans Günter,

could you please explain what that means?

Dietrich

Poorly translated.

It should read: He has taken the original tool of 1945. And still has a few years myself so produced for the occupying soldiers. I hope better to understand.

[Legion Condor]

Hi Hans,

Thanks for your reply and also your kind words about my Paratrooper badge book, very much appreciated.

I realize that this is only your opinion, but with all you know and have seen I would love to know what your thoughts are on S&L production in the immediate postwar period (June 1945 to 1950)? Do you think that S&L actually produced in this time period? Or do you feel anything from this time period was punched out in wartime but put together after the war for souvenier or returning vets, etc.?

Thanks

Tom

I received information that has gone shortly after the war, the owner of the company and has taken tools. Upper or jeman different manufactures I do not know. But it was the model no. 2 I have shown produces. I can of course not 100% accurate know the times. But I have collected many jahe about S & L.

And the pieces shown in the years get together. And the pieces give yes answers to production.

Of course it is only my opinion as I always said. But again, the pieces confirm what I say.

Greeting Hans Günter

I hope you can understand what I mean!

[Nick Carraway]

What does "received information" mean?

[Thomas Durante]

Based on just the "L/16" stamp, I would guess that "the Hero" may be responsible for the S&L SK copy (and perhaps even the "CEJ" SK copy from another thread?). The "eyes" of those with experience with his products would be helpful here.

Gentry, here is the "Hero's" L/16 stamp. It is different than the ones we see on the SKs in this thread IMO. Specifically notice the gap in between the slash and the 1.

Tom

[Thomas Durante]

Compare

[Leroy]

Sorry, Tom. Instead a Panzer badge by the Hero, I should have said an IAB, and here it is:

[Leroy]

And the mark from the third in the sequence of photos of the badge just shown.

[Thomas Durante]

Hi Gentry,

That IAB is certainly a "Hero" product. The maker mark indeed looks identical to the one shown on the alledged 1980s SK posted by Legion, although its hard to be 100% sure of a match without a better straight on shot of it. These marks look different than the one on the Hero PAB, suggesting he has 2 S&L stamps (1 of them matching the 1980s S&L stamp quite well).

Tom

[Leroy]

Tom - Glad we cleared that up (and learned in the process that the Hero has more than one "L/16").

P.S. Without scrolling all the way back down, I think that Hans Günter said this one appeared in the 80's. Could be wrong, though.

[Thomas Durante]

Yep, you are right Gentry, its 1980s instead of 70s. I modified my post above to fix it, thanks.

Tom

[Legion Condor]

Hello collectors, not that my contribution is misunderstood!

I just want to show and prove us that there are many copies of S & L and this was produced until the late 1980 years. And can prove using the embossing error over the eagle's head also.

It was always said in Germany with the original S & L tools was still produces only about 5 years after the war. And that I have now proved that it is different.

My evidence that I have come to protect the collector. This is also with a strong drive why I am writing a book about the Order & Decoration of the Legion Condor.

When the copies were produced just is not quite as important special that they are there for me. Sure, the other results of such a research are very interesting.

Sure, it's also for me to see that my contribution also ratify such other copies confirmed by the stamp.

Greeting Hans Günter

[Thomas Durante]

It was always said in Germany with the original S & L tools was still produces only about 5 years after the war. And that I have now proved that it is different.

Hi Hans,

Forgive me, but I am still trying to figure out exactly what is being said here. From your quote above, it sounds like you are saying that "it was commonly thought in Germany that S&L only produced badges in the postwar period for about 5 years after the war and then stopped". Is that correct?

Common thought here on the forum is that S&L produced for many years after the war and certainly into the 80s, which correlates well to the timeline you laid out here in this thread.

More importantly though, is the notion that S&L was active in the immediate postwar period producing badges (1945 to 1950 timeframe). Not only finishing leftover badges, but actually stamping out new badges in this timeframe........and also creating new dies for badges that they did not produce during the war (such as the Antipartisan badge, Luftwaffe Ground Assault Badge, etc.). I have had no problem believing that this was the case, but other collectors don't believe that S&L started new production until the 1950s. For me this is the biggest question that lingers in our hobby and would love to know the truth, whichever it may be.

Tom

[Legion Condor]

Hi Tom,

I do not believe that the S & L itself even after 1957 3rd Reich medal with NS has produced signs. The off because it was forbidden and punished. I glube the tools were sold or taken out of someones with, and then was further produced.

Who was that we are not able to clarify mehlr, or how it was exactly with the tools.

I say it again. I can only show that was still produced using the original tools for long. And as the models of 1939 - 1980 looked that have come onto the market and have developed witer.

Everything else is just stories and ask open for me.
For me it is important to be able to say what is original and what is a copy.
For me it is important to recognize the copy.

It is important for me to show that the pieces with 4 & L/16 are also original.

Greeting Hans Günter

[Legion Condor]

Hi Tom,

again the question whether S & L from 1945-1950 NS Order has directly sale. yes I think so. You have had 100% remainders who wanted to make her more to cash. Just in the time it was very difficult in Germany and every possibility was to get money and eat ok. I say every company no matter what she has produced, has tried to swap or sell the remaining stocks. Yes and of course S & L.
S & L had to be destroyed not happiness. And could do so more than others. Everyone has used his time in the possibility.

The business idea of collectors to sell and earn money has determined not take long for the crew, the soldiers wanted to have enough.

I just think the time after the war can be very difficult to resolve, or rather never cleared. We can only speculate.

S & L has always been a very heavy topic. Many stories are heard.
But no one was there. So we have what we have with the work.

Greeting Hans Günter

[Leroy]

A long time ago, I speculated on this Forum that the much-quoted 1953 article in REVUE magazine (in which a German medal dealer, operating out of the back of his tobacco shop, mentioned that if he did not have something a customer wanted, he would send the customer a short distance up the road to his principal supplier, S&L, and if S&L didn't have the item in its stock , it could get the item for the customer with a delivery time of just a few weeks) really meant that S&L in those times was itself not newly manufacturing items, but was instead obtaining them from a third party. I further speculated that the third party might be Souval, who I believed could have had an "arrangement" with S&L to manufacture outside of Germany (where manufacture was illegal), possibly even using S&L dies and hardware.

It appears now that my speculation concerning Souval may or may not have been correct (and we'll probably never know), but the idea that S&L was not doing the manufacturing itself was correct (and was apparently something already believed in Germany for some time). Based on what Hans Günter is saying, the tools had been physically removed from S&L by one of its owners, but were still being used by someone to produce elsewhere. (My personal guess remains outside Germany.) And, as he showed with examples, the copies are distinguishable from S&L's wartime production by materials, color, finish, etc., etc.

I wasn't collecting in 1953 (or 1945 or 1950, either), but I did start in the later 1950's and I "heard things" that maybe are not in general circulation any more. There is such a thing as "institutional memory" in this hobby. Some of it is pure BS, but some of it has turned out to be very true.