RK - Knight's Cross: K&Q

[Leroy]

If Bob confirms it, that's good enough for me.

[Rich G]

I'm not saying it is true or not just that when prosper Keating gets involved you have to expect things get twisted. His version has a London dealer involved.

[Leroy]

I'm not saying it is true or not just that when prosper Keating gets involved you have to expect things get twisted. His version has a London dealer involved.

That was his version on the S&L dies, but maybe he has similar stories for any number of things., or maybe they are both true, or.....

[Tom B]

I've been hearing this story for years. IMO it's any ones best guess ?

[Dietrich Maerz]

This is not a story. It is well known in Germany. Bob Hritz

Not to the Germans I know and I know a few.
I am in contact with a guy who writes articles in Germany about K&Q and who's Grandfather was working for Klein&Quenzer. He lives in Idar-Oberstein. He knows about the relocation in the 70s of the company away from Idar-Oberstein and the things that were found in the old factory areas, but so far he has never mentioned any selling of dies or new manufacturing of K&Q Knights Crosses with these dies after the war.

However, I know about a rumor (again, a rumor!) that in the late 70's all over sudden quite an amount of brand news K&Q RKs in original cases and with original ribbons showed up at local shows for a short while. Nobody could name names, nobody took pictures, nobody has seen these quantities again, nobody could even mention any quantities (10? 50? 100? 1000?). The rumor has is that it was a non-shipped order found somewhere in the old factory. Certainly possible, maybe even likely. I decided not to print this rumor in my RK book, but mentioned the fact that a large amount of K&Q on the market are mint. I also showed the one (and only!) 1957 RK with a war-time K&Q frame, which turned out to be most likely a hand-made example and not a post-war company produced article.

I have not experienced a huge wave of mint K&Q crosses in my 35 years (20 in Germany) in the hobby (I know, I know, I am just a youngster) but I also must say that it always seemed to me that Mr. Niemann had quite a good supply of K&Q to complete groups.

Neither Williamson, nor Bowen, nor Geissler, nor Nimmergut write about any possible post-war activity of Klein & Quenzer. This could be a sign of lack of research, being part of a conspiracy, or due to the possibility that there was none.

As it is always the case, it is very easy to install a rumor, it is even easier to believe it, but when push comes to shove, again it is about these pesky facts which are missing to prove the rumor.
It has been asserted that war time crosses can be detected by their manufacturing quality and that post-war products just don't have it. Under that assumption (or rule?), there are no post war K&Q! They are all of exeptional quality. Paint, solder, frames, loops, case, and ribbon. If they are post-war made, my kudos to the maker since nobody could spot a difference between possible post-war examples and war-time made crosses. And if there is no difference they must be original since only a fake has a difference to the original, otherwise it would not be a fake but an original.

Dietrich

[jwburchell]

Thanks to all who have contributed to my thread. I am obviously happy with that, and particularly so in light of the posting by Dietrich Maerz above which states the situation very nicely, clearly and concisely.

[Dietrich Maerz]

Here is a very nice read on the topic of "Ahhhhh, the dies survived!": http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ighlight=K%26Q

I find the posts #3, #8 (Frank Heukemes, a German), and #51 very interesting.

I also find it interesting that there was once (another) rumor that Juncker borrowed the dies from Godet (which, as we know, got the parts form Zimmermann) to produce RKs after the company was bombed out. That rumor has also never been substantiated....

Dietrich

[Bob Hritz]

I recall it was very difficult, in not near impossible to buy K&Q RK in the sixties through the late eighties. If my memory is correct the great flood began in the 1990s and seems to continue. You can always find several K&Q RKs available, many times more often than Juncker or St&L. Why would the price for a K&Q always be less than other makers?

It is in the dealers best interest for us not to think about currently existant dies.

It is everyone's choice what to believe. I have a K&Q Rk, well used, that I keep.

Bob Hritz

[Dietrich Maerz]

I asked my collector friend in Idar-Oberstein again about this topic and here is his answer:

"Such rumors always amuse me again and again, since they spring up years apart, but always without any proof or evidence. I regard the topic of new productions as a fantasy fairy tale. But let's wait until the latest Knights Crosses of these alleged new productions come to the market and are detected as such. Until then we cannot dispell this rumor and we also cannot shield the collectors from it.

Very interesting in this context is always that there was never any talk about a possible new production of both classes of the Iron Cross, the War Merti Crosses, two grades of the Wound Badge, and the East Medal - only the Knights Cross.

Why should have, of all things, the necessary die set (five dies) of the Knights Cross survived the war and be kept for a post-war production? How should the necessary five dies have reached somebody, who has the technical means to produce? This is all a fairy tale.
My grandfather was during and after the war a foreman in the tool shop of K&Q. Since he was valuable for the production due to his skills and also had a higher function in the SA he was not drafted.
Regarding to him the old tools were reworked for new products after the war. The contours of the medals were removed and the blocks were engraved again. This was practical and the few material which was available was used before any money was spend for new things.
This was also confirmed by my father, which entered into an apprenticeship as a steel engraver after the war. And I heard the same story from former workers of other companies during my countless research interviews.
K&Q manufactured over 1 million Iron Crosses during the Great War. Between 1918 and 1945 K&Q did not manufacture any Iron Crosses of 1914, something other companies did. This is because the tools for the 1914 version were reworked after 1918 or were thrown away.
I could write even more about this topic, but it is way to useless to fight against wind mills. I hope I have helped you a little bit and I would be thankful if you would keep me posted about further chapters of this fairy tale.

With the best wishes from good old Germany!"

I know very well that this is by far not enough to persuade the believers in the "post-war die production" but I want to have a written record here at WAF for new members who use the search function. The gentleman will also write an article for my magazine.

Dietrich

[Leroy]

That is a very interesting comment and thanks for posting it.

Could you please ask him to address, when he writes the article for the magazine, exactly how the old dies (which I would guess were hardened steel) were re-worked to make new products after World War Two? ("Regarding to him the old tools were reworked for new products after the war. The contours of the medals were removed and the blocks were engraved again. This was practical and the few material which was available was used before any money was spend for new things.") Was the part of each die with the award's impression cut off or ground down, so as to leave a bare surface which could be re-engraved for some other, completely different, stamping? Sounds like old-fashioned German ingenuity and thriftiness, but it would be very informative to know how this was done.

[Bob Hritz]

I suppose hardened too steel could be annealed and ground down to get a flat surface to reuse. This would be something I had not seen in the tool and die industry because large blocks do not always temper properly after being annealed. But, I suppose anything is possible and the Germans may have had a very good method to do this.

Well, I suppose a huge, unending lot lf K&Q RKs was found, in the 1990s, and was a perfectly kept secret by the person who found them is another possibility.

If I had the dies for the series of Iron Crosses, I do not think I would waste my time doing the same amount of work to sell one product for $100.00 and another for $7000.00. That would be a rather dull witted business plan.

Bob Hritz

[Dietrich Maerz]

Well, I suppose a huge, unending lot lf K&Q RKs was found, in the 1990s, and was a perfectly kept secret by the person who found them is another possibility.

Bob,

I really do not see this "huge, unending lot of K&Q RKs". I think it must be a very subjective perception on your side. Here is a today's survey of four dealers (one has the sold items still active which is good for sampling):

Steinhauer & Lück: 7
Juncker: 7
K&Q: 3

This might not be representative but I can add this percentage to the survey. Based on all expertises I have done I can state the following:

Steinhauer & Lück: 39.8%
Juncker: 32.8%
Klein&Quenzer: 15%
Schickle: 6.8%
Zimmermann/Godet: 5.6%

I always was and still am of the opinion that S&L and Juncker supplied the most Knights Crosses and that is clearly reflected in today's reality.

[Darrell]

That was his version on the S&L dies, but maybe he has similar stories for any number of things., or maybe they are both true, or.....

PK is a legend in his own mind ... may have questioned whether his gears go Counter clockwise for years.

[Brian S]

So what DID happen to the dies? By your own story Dietrich it is possible the dies survived. And would everyone's grandfather who worked in the factory know about every item and its disposition? No.

To the contrary, since no one saw the bodies (dies) it fuels the fire they are still alive today. It seems unlikely you could mint crosses and frames and paint them convincingly and attach a reasonable loop. But not impossible, but I think very unlikely even a London dealer gets it all right.

But, looking back to the Rounder, not impossible to do a very convincing job.

And as much as I detest keating, that's with a small "k", if he says the earth is round and the sun sets in the west, it doesn't make it untrue. With him it's all about an agenda to do harm. His rants are filled with lies and innuendo and half truths. So he exaggerates to do harm, why? Seba had a K&Q and that was a good reason for him.

But, the die probably survived, and no one yet can say "here's what happened to it..."

[Bob Hritz]

I recall, several years ago, there were 23 K&;Q Knight's crosses for sale between Niemann, Winkler, Weitze, and Phillip, all at the same time. Rarely did the first three listed dealers have less than five K&Q Knights Crosses available on each of their sites. It does seem to have slowed down, lately.

I would like to believe that a large find was made and end the controversy. However, I do trust collector friends, in Germany, who were aware of the auction of the equipment. Sadly, no catalog, of the contents of the auction, is available to dispel or verify the story. I will continue to ask if this can be verified or is another collector legend.

Bob Hritz