Knights Cross opinion

[Del Panfini]

Hi, I got these pics of this Knights Cross from a friend of mine. They are not the best but they are all he sent me. Could you get an idea if it is a good one from these pics? Any help would be appreciated.

Del

[Del Panfini]

Knights Cross opinion

pic 3 & 4

[Del Panfini]

Knights Cross opinion

last pic

[Tom B]

can't tell much from these photos. any chance of posting much better ones ? Tom

[hkusp40]

Very tough to tell from these pictures. Possibly a B-Type S&L. Possibly. -Ger

[kraut72]

S&L A-typ,micro 800 with unfinished loopring

[Leroy]

S&L A-typ,micro 800 with unfinished loopring

Probably correct. The loop ring is not actually unfinished, but just not finished to the extent we see on many other pieces.

[Ludwig]

Yes, much better pictures needed! IMO.

[Del Panfini]

Knights Cross opinion

Thanks for the replies. I know they are bad pics that my friend sent me. He sent them to me for my opinion & I really couldn't come up with one myself so that is why I posted it here. What is the difference between the S & LA and the S & LB? Is the S & L B the one made with the original dyes post war? I will ask him for better pics if he can.

Thanks again for your help.

Del

[Leroy]

.... What is the difference between the S & LA and the S & LB? Is the S & L B the one made with the original dyes post war?....
Del

The "A"/"B" discussion is MUCH more complicated, and controversial and disputed, than can be summed up in one simple answer. Suffice it to say that both "A" and "B" frames existed during the war, with the vast majority (if not all) of the crosses actually awarded by the government being "A" framed crosses. At present, only two "B" framed types have been solidly identified and confirmed as being designated for award use (the 935-4 and 800-4 marked crosses), but it is unproven if either was actually given out (although there is some circumstantial evidence of award). Possible use of other "B" framed crosses for shop display, museum and other exhibition, "second" pieces for awardees, or even possibly as award pieces is unproven (either way) and likely to remain so, although both U.S. and German vets have reported possession of other "B" framed crosses during the war years. It all boils down to what (and who) you choose to believe and there are serious and experienced collectors/researchers on both sides of the questions. The issue is complicated by the use of "B" frames to produce crosses (to include both swastika-cored crosses and early "1957 version" crosses) in the postwar years.

[streptile]

Has an "A" frame RK ever been found with an S&L maker's mark? Either 4 or L/16.

[Leroy]

Has an "A" frame RK ever been found with an S&L maker's mark? Either 4 or L/16.

No.

[streptile]

No.

Thanks Gentry. I am aware of a discussion regarding two different S&L cores, one with a dipping 3 in 1813, which you referenced in another thread:

the reverse date appears to have the core with "dipping 3" in 1813, not normally seen in a "B".

Is one of the two cores always seen in the "A" and the other in the "B" frames? In other words, are the "A" and "B" frames always distinct combinations of core/frame? Or is there some mixing?

[Leroy]

People only became generally aware of the two different cores in the last couple of years, so there really has not been a great deal of analysis done. My personal observation is that crosses with the large stamped "800" mark seem to always have the "dipping 3" core, while some "micro 800" crosses will (rarely) have it (but usually have the "normal" core) and "B" framed crosses (including the 935-4 and 800-4) seem to always have the "normal" core. Interestingly, of the three crosses found on the Ludenscheid "barter boards" discussed here several years ago, brought back by a British officer right after the war, all three were "micro 800" types (believed to be "A", not "B", versions), two had the "dipping 3" core, and none had the raised beading flaws said to be associated with later "A" type crosses (which were what might have been expected to be seen on such a board, assembled from factory leftover stock). There were thousands of RK's assembled by S&L during the war (and its neighbor Deumer also was certainly involved in RK production, too), but we have only been able to examine so far only a very small fraction of the crosses produced in that small town. We don't know if there was any link between the companies, nor do we know why the "dipping 3" core was ever used, where it came from, or what happened to it.

[streptile]

Sorry Gentry, I got lost in the details of your reply there, despite reading it a half dozen times. The story of S&L frames is intensely confusing for me and I can't follow all the ins and out of the marks/cores/frames in your post, probably because I don't know which frames are marked with which marks.

You said that in your observation B framed crosses "seem to always have the "normal" core."

Would you be good enough to answer this question for me with a simple yes or no:

Do all "A" frame crosses seem to have the dipping 3 core?

Many thanks in advance for your help.