Something you don't see everyday...

[Dietrich Maerz]

For me "early post-war" is the time beween 1946 and 1950. Maybe others have another time frame in mind. In his interesting book "German Medal Makers & Their Marks 1813 - 1957" the author Mark Woods writes on page 130: "By 1949, he (Hans Assmann) was fully back in production with badges and equipment for the railways, post office, fire department, mining, trams, etc ..."

If Assmann was busy, it is very reasonable to assume that also other companies in Lüdenscheid picked up some reconstruction work. That the so-called barter boards are post-war productions is not in doubt. That most companies in that area also had left over stock is also highly probable.

For the collector of historical items these barter boards are very desireable and it realy makes no difference whether the pieces are late pre- or early post-war. They are still pieces of that history and time. To use them as evidence for pre- or post war production is IMO very dangerous.

For a collector of genuine orders and medals in the sense it is used in collector circles, a zinc Knights Cross of the War Merit Cross cannot and is not the real deal. It is a reporoduction made with the same die but in zinc, a not unknown procedure of S&L.

[Flemming]

Not many years ago, when something odd was found, the medal/badge/helmet/what ever, had to be proven real, before accepten by the community.
Now it seems that if the item is of "great" interest, it has to be proven fake.
Why this change?

I my self is still in the opinion, that an item has to be proven Real, before I would accept it as real.
I am not saying that they are of no interest, but I can't just accept it to be real, because if feels or looks real.

Just my 2 cent in this matter.

/Flemming

PS and my opinion might be what it is, as I am a low budget collector?
I would never buy a RK unless it was from one of the accepten manufacture. But still, I am convinced that there were more Companys making the RK, I just "have to" play safe, when it comes to me collecting medals, badges, equipment...

[Leroy]

Thank you, Dietrich. You are trying to be logical and straightforward and I appreciate that.

There is NO doubt (and I personally have said so many times before) that S&L and other companies recommenced production at some point, to satisfy demand from, initially, remaining occupation soldiers, and, later, German veterans, and, still later, a growing general collector market. I also believe, however, that such production had NOT recommenced at the time of the production of this particular type of board (which is the same type as the multiple ones from one officer seen and discussed here several years ago following their sale at a British auction house), and that the content of such boards represent leftover material remaining in factories (not just S&L) in Ludenscheid at the end of the war. My belief is supported not only by Herr Assmann's statement (which is the ONLY statement we have by a person who was present, and in a position to know the truth, at the time), but by the mandates of the Allied Control Commisssion , the emotional reality of the times and, even more importantly, the large quantity of material confirmed to have been left over and still in existence at the end of the war. We see this reflected in the type of material on these particular boards, which is either "fully finished" to TR quality control standards or very obviously crudely assembled from existing component parts. Over time, things changed, and we start to see subtle changes in these "souvenirs".

I get the distinct impression that, at least here on this Forum, my views are regarded as ill-informed and naïve, and that my years of collecting and study (since 1958) and being exposed to "this stuff" and the veterans who brought it back, are valueless and of no account.

Well, it's your hobby now. Hope you enjoy what's left of it.

[Dietrich Maerz]

I really don't think that the few discussions, read by maybe 1000 or 2000 interested collectors, can turn the hobby in one direction or another. Especially when it is about such esotheric things like the time beween May 1945 and maybe 1948/49.

Most of us here remember the earlier days of the internet-based discussions and would laugh about what we tried to "find out" then. But now we are at a different level and are trying to crack the last mysteries and we are making slower progress than in the beginning, which is very normal when you are at the deep end of things.

I get the distinct impression that, at least here on this Forum, my views are regarded as ill-informed and naïve, and that my years of collecting and study (since 1958) and being exposed to "this stuff" and the veterans who brought it back, are valueless and of no account.

Nothing could be farther from the truth! As I said earlier, there are numerous examples where multiple accounts of unrelated veterans have contributed to the truth, combined with forensic and documentary evidence. Again, Klessheim is a perfect example: veteran finds are completely in line with the forensic evidence and also with the German documents.

Your and other "old timer" experience combined with your historical knowledge is as valuable as any other piece of the puzzle. However, and that is not your fault, everything has to be taken with a portion of scepsis and with some counter-checking. That has to be allowed and is nothing personal. The times (and again, I do not mean you) where the collectors believed every dealer and his "poetic licensed" stories about this and that item - some or even most of them turning out to be bogus - are over and it has done the hobby a good service.

Nobody is saying the things on the barter board are fake or definetivel post-war. However, one has to be allowed to point out certain facts and I am sure that you would not like it if everybody here would believe every suggestion and/or theory as gospel without factual challenging the presented theories. How boring would that be - and how dangerous??!!

Dietrich

[Jo Rivett]

We see this reflected in the type of material on these particular boards, which is either "fully finished" to TR quality control standards or very obviously crudely assembled from existing component parts. Over time, things changed, and we start to see subtle changes in these "souvenirs".

I get the distinct impression that, at least here on this Forum, my views are regarded as ill-informed and naïve, and that my years of collecting and study (since 1958) and being exposed to "this stuff" and the veterans who brought it back, are valueless and of no account.

Well, it's your hobby now. Hope you enjoy what's left of it.

Not at all, i agree with you 100% and not sarcastically this time either. If you study one item, and only one item, and apply what you know about that item (as well as the detailed and correct, history of that item) to answer - or attempt to answer - this question, than you will see these subtle changes quite clearly. There is no need for a vet tale or a stamp of "x-amount of years in the hobby" to assist with the interpretation. Well at least not for the individual who has studied that "one item"

[Patrick W]

Flemming- you fail to note that these RK KVKs ARE from one of the accepted manufacturers- S&L was an authorised producer and made examples in silver and in zinc.

Leroy- I appreciate your input and your argument to me at any rate is far more logical than the factories being cranked up again in 1945-6 producing nazi material (and that these boards can be dated to 1946 is not of dispute) for the occupation market- this when people were destroying what there was in there houses relating to the TR.
That being said there was huge amounts of surplus and factory stocks. I have seen this time and time again coming out of UK veteran estates, they got in the factories and grabbed what they could- Deumer and S&L seem to be the most common that turn up. I have owned probably over a dozen Deumer ek1 clasps which had never reached the pin assembly stage- all grabbed out of the factory by Uk soldiers and turned up here in recent years- they for sure weren't made in 1946!

[Dietrich Maerz]

Flemming- you fail to note that these RK KVKs ARE from one of the accepted manufacturers- S&L was an authorised producer and made examples in silver and in zinc.

Yes, they made them in silver and zinc, that is true. But it is proven that they made them in silver before May 1945 by veteran finds from Schloss Klessheim. And it is NOT proven that they made the zinc version during the war. And that at this point in time is not an opinion, it is a fact!

... (and that these boards can be dated to 1946 is not of dispute)

Were can I find the indisputable evidence that all barter boards were made in 1946? That is really news to me. To be sarcastic: why did they stop end of 1946 and didn't do any, not one, in 1947, 1948, or even 1949?
Patrick, with all due respect, I really don't think that the time of manufacture of the boards is proven beyond the time "between 1945 and 1949/50 or so".

[Darrell]

The thing that strikes me as odd ...

How faded and sun-bleached the board itself is ... yet the ribbons all appear to be almost pristine in appearance. I could see the reverse of the ribbons being like this, but the front?

[Tiger88]

The thing that strikes me as odd ...

How faded and sun-bleached the board itself is ... yet the ribbons all appear to be almost pristine in appearance. I could see the reverse of the ribbons being like this, but the front?

Exactly what I thought when I saw the pics. Good point.
I don't know if everybody is to involved with the discussion about during, after or way past 1945 production to notice this.

//Thomas

[Ludwig]

IMO there is absolutely no chance, that crosses intended to be awarded, were ever produced in zink! This was a high award!

[fabri-online]

Patrick please, can you read what is the manufacturer of the Afrika Medal ?
I think it's not possible to find the Afrika Medal on a late war presentation cardboard

[Jo Rivett]

IMO there is absolutely no chance, that crosses intended to be awarded, were ever produced in zink! This was a high award!

This reminds me of Christopher Ailsby`s notion of the Hitler Youth Golden honor badge (with oak leaves) being produced in silver and later in zinc.. when the actual name of the award, The Hitlerjugend Ehrenzeichen in Gold - (no mention of Eichenlaub ever in period material) states exactly what it was, an ward, in solid gold - hence the name - Ehrenzeichen in gold!

Exactly what I thought when I saw the pics. Good point.
I don't know if everybody is to involved with the discussion about during, after or way past 1945 production to notice this.
//Thomas

For my salt, i think it really is best to leave the actual findings up to the person who has the item in-hand. Uploaded images can deceive, and we can also read into them whatever we want to, or maybe not that, but maybe rather that small images uploaded to the Internet could be interpreted in many ways - to suit many arguments. Yes i noticed it, but it is immaterial as far as i am concerned, and seeing as i have never held the item being discussed, i cannot comment on color and be 100% sure of what i am saying.
Factual debate really should take precedence. I do understand exactly what you are saying, but i have also bought many badges before just on photos, and then been very surprised because they are either way worse, or better, than the images initially provided.

[Patrick W]

Dietrich

Perhaps I should have phrased that better- the point I am making is that this type of barter board- ie, same construction, card stock (placemat) base is known to have been brought back in 1946- that is the provenance relating to the much discussed set of boards that were broken up by emedals some years back now. And yes this one could be 45, 46 , 47 who knows, my point is that I don't believe for one second that S&L resumed production of Nazi badges and medals in the 1940s.

As far as the fading goes- that is a good point well spotted but not one of concern I think. The original emedals set exhibits similar fading with the ribbons being perfect- it would appear that the blue flocking material on the surface of the boards was particularly light sensitive. I actually acquired one of the boards from that famous set- the one with all the long service medals on and broke it up, I regret that now but at the time it made sense and again the fading was like the board in question with no light damage to the ribbons.

The Afrika medal is a zinc example in silver by Lorioli Milan- a type 3 as Antonio classifies it- may have been produced a couple of years earlier in the war but what we are talking about is left over stock so S&L or another Ludenscheid company had a stock of these zinc medals in 1945-46-47..

[Bruce Simcox]

Hi Guys......

......I'm not going to get into it about when these boards were assembled because, I do not know.

However, I do like the following:

Leroy- I appreciate your input and your argument to me at any rate is far more logical than the factories being cranked up again in 1945-6 producing nazi material

Ok, you may be wondering why I am even posting. Let me explain. The French(among other countries) had teams going through West Germany seeking usable industrial machinery to allocate for confiscation, and send back to France, as War reparations. I read a book in 1967 named Small Wonder about the Volkswagen. In this book it relates how the Volkswagen factory complex, in Wolfsburg, was occupied by about a half dozen British soldiers soon after the beginning of The Occupation. With some very clever subterfuge, by the British troops stationed there(realizing the value of the VW as a way to help in rebuilding the post war German economy), the allocation of the machinery in the VW factories was prevented. When some expected French inspectors appeared at the VW plant the British, who were prepared for the inspection, wined them and dined them. After dinner they packed them into a schwimmwagen and drove them at speed off the end the factory pier into the river. The seals blew, the vehicle went down and the French inspectors, now drunk and wet, stormed off, very pissed at their British dinner hosts...and never returned. The rest, as could be, is history.

I mention this because if these inspectors were seizing as much salvageable machinery as they could, in the Western zone of Germany, then the odds should be favorable that they would have been confiscating machinery from our favorite medal manufacturers too. Maybe not all of them, but certainly some.

Just something to think about, because it is a fact that such reparations took place.

From Wikpedia: According to the Yalta Conference, no reparations to Allied countries would be paid in money. Instead, much of this value consisted of German industrial assets, as well as forced labour.
[

I will also note that this period of industrial assets reparation(I do not know exactly for how long that period lasted) was eventually circumvented by The Marshall Plan, adopted by the Western Allies. They may not have been able to get to all the undamaged factories in Germany, during that time frame, to allocate and seize machinery.

I also agree with Flemming

Not many years ago, when something odd was found, the medal/badge/helmet/what ever, had to be proven real, before accepten by the community.
Now it seems that if the item is of "great" interest, it has to be proven fake.
Why this change?

I my self is still in the opinion, that an item has to be proven Real, before I would accept it as real.
I am not saying that they are of no interest, but I can't just accept it to be real, because if feels or looks real.

[Patrick W]

I just thought that I would add for those interested that the 2 kvk2s are also S&L having looked very closely at the strike details.
It would seem S&L used 2 dies wartime for the KVK 1 and 2. The KVK1 with swords in zinc matches the zinc kvk2 with swords whilst the earlier kvk1 in tombak matches the zinc kvk2 on this board, interesting stuff for me anyway but I am a medals geek