Something you don't see everyday...

[Leroy]

Sure!
And very often "the very real experience" goes the other way. Which makes clear that there is really not a "rule" of when to believe or when not, unfortunately. This might be the fault of certain individuals who have used the term "veteran acquired" very loose, to say the least. But that does not mean that sourcing from veterans has no value, far from it (I would like to mention the current Klessheim article ...), but IMO it just takes a little more than just to say "from a US or British vet."
But again, if it is believed that they are pre-May 1945 so be it. They have, however, nothing directly to do with the official pieces, neither with those found in Klessheim bei US-veterans (!!) nor with the actual awarded pieces.

Dietrich

I am quite sure that the phrase "vet-acquired" is tossed around by many people
(especially some dealers) to give credence to pieces which may never have been touched by a vet (well, maybe a Vietnam vet). It may also well be that the occasional vet will flat out lie and claim he got something during the war that he in fact acquired years later. That latter occurrence, however, at least in my personal experience, is very infrequent and, in dealing with vets, you develop a "feel" for what is BS and what is not. Any longtime collector who has dealt with real World War II vets will confirm this.

A piece may not be actually intended for award, but if it was made during the period by a manufacturer as a "representative piece" (especially if made by a manufacturer who did make pieces for award), it is still part of history.

[Thomas Durante]

With S&L (and some other companies as well) you never know.

Maybe they are pre-45, maybe they were made as "souvenirs" for the allied soldiers....

Hard to say after all these years.

AGREED 100%

Without knowing exactly when S&L started new production of swastika-bearing awards after the war, it is impossible to say if boards like this are filled with wartime leftovers or early postwar-made souvenier pieces.

Patrick, any info on where this board came from and when it might have been acquired by the vet?

Thanks

Tom

[Leroy]

AGREED 100%

Without knowing exactly when S&L started new production of swastika-bearing awards after the war, it is impossible to say if boards like this are filled with wartime leftovers or early postwar-made souvenier pieces.

Patrick, any info on where this board came from and when it might have been acquired by the vet?

Thanks

Tom

It would also be helpful to know if there is anything on the board not from S&L. On this particular board, I would doubt it, but still worth checking.

In the case of this particular example, the awards are mounted on cardstock which is identical to the cardstock backing of the multiple boards from one British officer discussed here before, with the same sort of fading seen there. Those boards, because of the larger number of awards, also had pieces from other manufacturers.

Until someone can prove to me that S&L resumed new manufacture (i.e. new die-striking) "early" after the war (something NO ONE has been able to do in the several years we have been discussing this, and something which Herr Assmann -just down the road- personally told Andreas Klein was ridiculous), I will view these boards and their contents to represent the leftover wartime stock of S&L and/or the multiple other medal manufacturing companies based in Ludenscheid.

[Patrick W]

Having checked all the medals on the board I can tell you that the RKs are not marked but are from the same die as the silver 4 marked pieces- so in that case Dietrich I would say they have a lot to do with the award pieces. Both KVK1s are marked 4 on the pin and the Ostmedaille 4 on the loop- rest are unmarked.
The RKs are also attached with unused brass prongs that were also left over- probably for use on ek2 clasps.

Thats a good summing up Leroy and one that I fully concur with. Unfortunately I have no history to this board but it is the same as many brought back with the base board supposedly being a placemat from the factory canteen. The suggestion that new production of TR awards started as early as 1945 is nuts to me- IMO these boards do represent what was left over and cobbled together, you sometimes find unfinished medals and mismatched ribbons etc on them as they were making use of what they had.

[Thomas Durante]

Until someone can prove to me that S&L resumed new manufacture (i.e. new die-striking) "early" after the war (something NO ONE has been able to do in the several years we have been discussing this, and something which Herr Assmann -just down the road- personally told Andreas Klein was ridiculous), I will view these boards and their contents to represent the leftover wartime stock of S&L and/or the multiple other medal manufacturing companies based in Ludenscheid.

There is no question S&L made badges postwar, that is a fact and I think we all agree on that. We just don't know WHEN they started, so until someone can prove to me that S&L didn't just continue making awards immediately postwar (something no one has been able to do in all our years of discussion, and when Andreas asked S&L if their dies survived the war, they just smiled at him), I will continue to view these boards and their contents with skepticism.

Tom

[Leroy]

Thanks, Patrick, for the good information.

Tom - You are welcome to think whatever you want to think. Every author needs a boogeyman, and the earlier in time, the better. I hope Andreas will comment here (although he is so disgusted by the whole process, he may not).

[Thomas Durante]

Tom - You are welcome to think whatever you want to think.

Thanks Gentry. You are certainly entitled to your opinion as well. Hopefully one day we will find out who is right.

Tom

[Dietrich Maerz]

... so in that case Dietrich I would say they have a lot to do with the award pieces.

I would never doubt that it is the same die. Just as S&L used the wartime dies after the war with lots of other pieces, why would they not do so here?

An official award piece by S&L was made in 935 silver and was marked "4". That is what I meant with "having nothing to do with an award piece."

Regarding the left over parts I think one cannot apply this here. The real crosses were made of silver. The ones made of zinc were either made during the war for display and museum as Gentry theorizes or were made after the war for the souvenir hunters. In either case, they were deliberately made of zinc.

Dietrich

[Jo Rivett]

....and something which Herr Assmann -just down the road- personally told Andreas Klein was ridiculous....

I agree, totally ridiculous, there was certainly no demand for any of this after May 1945, and surely any company that did make the odd one or even two pieces (heavens forbid) would surely have buckled under questioning from a modern day Militaria auction house and said, "Mia Culpa"

[Leroy]

Your sarcasm is duly noted.

Please PROVE to us that what we see on these boards is the result of early postwar new production.

You can't...........

[Patrick W]

some more photos....

[Patrick W]

]]]]]]]

[Patrick W]

===

[Patrick W]

how the rks are attached

[Jo Rivett]

Please PROVE to us that what we see on these boards is the result of late war period production.

You can't..........