Neusilber vs silver

[tom hansen]

This may be a stupid question. I ran a search on this and could find an imperial thread which alluded to uneven patina as a characteristic of silver plated vs neusibler items and a less than "sharp" characteristics of beading.



Does anyone know a good, definitive means of determing neusilber vs silver? Both are non-magnetic (I will check that characteristic myself in the future) and would appear externally the same. There are different characteristics as far as density, electrical conductivity, and melting point (I found a site on the web), but would require samples of the piece. Anyone know how to tell by viewing? This is regarding frames to very early RKs- how can one really tell that a frame is nuesilber and not silver? Thanks

[SCHUPO]

Tom,

One of the simple things I have noticed is that Neusilber (nickel-silver or German silver) tends to tarnish with a golden glow. About 800 level real silver tends to tarnish to black. This might be a quick way to tell the difference for you.

[Erich B.]

Silber vs. Neusilber

Tom,
Real silver and silver plate tarnish the same way--blue/purple and then to black. If the plating is worn, only the plating that remains will tarnish to those colors.
Neusilber does not really tarnish, but as noted by 'Schupo', it tends to yellow or at least dull--somewhat like the fittings of an uncleaned SA dagger, for example.
I've found that some Neusilber RK frames seem to have slightly less detail than those made of 800 silver with the same dies. I assume that it's because the Neusilber is harder or less malleable than 800 silver, but that's just an assumption.
Erich

[Albert]

Hello guys,

This is a very good question and a good start. However, Neusilber, nickel-silver, German silver, Alpaka, etc., is a relatively wide range formula. Consequently, its tarnishing potential is based on the percentage of the base metals plus the chemical impact comming from the environment.

Neusiler ranges from a white silver look to a yellowish color as can be seen for example on EKs and Alpaka Goblets which have lost their surface treatment. Most often, Neusilber products are galvanized, surface treated, to look like silver. Those so called Alfinides are impossible to tell from silver items with an unarmed eye...

So I guess Tom's question is: Having two absolutely mint EKs in front of you, how do you tell which metal was used for the frames silver, or silver plated Neusilber.

A question to the silver freaks: was it a requirement or a at least absolutely necessary to mark silver products with a silver mark? Which would mean that any unmarked item is not made of silver. I doubt that but let's see...

Best regards,
Albert

Tom,

One of the simple things I have noticed is that Neusilber (nickel-silver or German silver) tends to tarnish with a golden glow. About 800 level real silver tends to tarnish to black. This might be a quick way to tell the difference for you.

[tom hansen]

Thank you very much for the replies, guys !


So it seems as though, given no marks that

1. The detailes of a neusilber frame may be less than a silver frame due to differences in the hardness of neusilber vs silver.

2. If there is wear of the finish , neusilber may have more of a yellow cast



Just to complicate things, I know that Dave Kane has an RK that has a non-magnetic core and a silver frame that is not marked "800", therefore reliance on a silver stamp is not consistent. ANy other thoughts? Thanks!

[Harry]

Tom,
neusilber frames are alot lighter than silver ones. A cross with neusilber frames, and a zinc core, will usually weigh-in as low as 27.5g with loop.

Best,

[Harry]

In addition Tom, I was of the beleif that neusilber was the equivalent of 'stay-brite' ie designed so that it would not tarnish like silver. It has always been a question in my mind whether these pieces with nuesilber frames and light zinc cores were made for display purposes by the makers and uniform outfitters etc, as we know that S&L made display forms of the oaks.

Best,

[Albert]

Harry,

Sorry, if it sounds harsh but unless you share with us the specific weight of silver and Neusilber your statement is rather worthless.

Albert

Tom,
neusilber frames are alot lighter than silver ones. A cross with neusilber frames, and a zinc core, will usually weigh-in as low as 27.5g with loop.

Best,

[Harry]

Albert, I posted this weight for comparison, as someone out there will have a zinc/non-magnetic cored cross with stamped siver frames, and may be able to give us a weight measurement.

[Albert]

Harry,

Neusilber has nothing to do with "stay-brite". The "stay-brite" feature, is I am not mistaken is a result of surface treatment.

Neusilber was an accepted material for the production of official awards; i.e. in the case of goblets it substituted silver as a cheaper alternative. I would like to see any period publication regulating the difference of material rel. to the use of the final product. I am most sceptical of the theory(?) that frames of such material where only for display and frames of such material only for awards. How where manufacturers, retailers etc. supposed to manage and control the separation and flow of absolutely identical badges?...

Albert

In addition Tom, I was of the beleif that neusilber was the equivalent of 'stay-brite' ie designed so that it would not tarnish like silver. It has always been a question in my mind whether these pieces with nuesilber frames and light zinc cores were made for display purposes by the makers and uniform outfitters etc, as we know that S&L made display forms of the oaks.

Best,

[Albert]

Harry,

Yes, but you need the specific weight, not just weight. Otherwise, you would have to measure the thickness of the sheet, the geometry, the dimension, consider the amount of solder, check for burrs inside that also add weight, compare the thickness of the core plus the same of the above to actually deduct the weight difference and make a statement that neusliber is lighter or heavier. etc.

It's just impossible. If this is of interest, I can find out the specific weight, no problem, but it will take me a couple of days. Perhaps somebody else can come up with that info quicker.

But that will be only academic as you still will be unable to determine the material of the frame due to reasons mentioned above.

Best regards,
Albert

Albert, I posted this weight for comparison, as someone out there will have a zinc/non-magnetic cored cross with stamped siver frames, and may be able to give us a weight measurement.

[Dietrich Maerz]

Tom,

here is what mathematics has to say about this. And it will be boring...

Specific weight iron (or steel) : 7.86 kg/cubicdm
Specific weight zinc : 7.13 kg/cubicdm

Ratio in specific weight Iron to zinc : 1,10238, i.e. an iron core with exactly the same shape thickness and form weighs 1.10238 times as much as a zinc core.

If you have a cross with a zinc core and an iron core with the same core (same die) and the same frame (same die), you can say the following (numbers are from Gordon (average) and from you:

29.77 gr = silver frame + iron core
27.50 gr = silver frame + zinc core

which leads to:

silver frame = 29.77 gr - iron core
silver frame = 27.50 gr - zinc core

which is same as :

29.77 gr - iron core = 27.50 - zinc core

and by substituion (zinc = 0.90712 x iron):

29.77 gr - iron core = 27.5 - (0.90712 iron)

which is the same as :

29.77 gr - 27.5 gr = iron - (0.90712 iron)

or

2.27 gr = iron (1-0.90712)

or

2.27 gr = iron x 0.09288

or

2.27/0.09288 = weight of iron core = 24.44 gr

and weight of zinc core = 0.90772 x 24.44 gr = 22.17 gr

and therefore : silverframe = 29.77 - 24.44 = 27.50 - 22.17 = 5.33 gr (incl. loop)

Specific weight of silver 800 is 10.14 gr/cubiccm so the volume of this frame is 0.5256 cubic cm.

Neusilber has a specific weight of 8.4 gr/cubiccme, so a Neusilber frame will weigh 4.415 gr.

Finally:

Iron Core with Neusilber frame = 24.44 + 4.415 = 28.85 instead of 29.77gr
Zinc Core with Neusilber frame = 22.17 +4.415 = 26.58 instead of 27.5 gr

This is mathematically correct BUT depends on the exactness of the data input (weights of crosses) and the purity of the metals (variation in specific weight). But in general, one can say that a Neusilber frame cross will weigh about 3-4% less than a silver frame one.

And this is not an opinion, this is facts.

Dietrich

P.S.: Thanks for going thru this....

[tom hansen]

Thanks guys-


Harry, I believe some of the earliest juncker Rks were made of neusilber and were unmarked and had non-magnetic cores. However, in Robin's book about fakes, he makes some reference to late war production of neusilber crosses with non-magentic cores. I have seen non-magnetic core RKs with silver frames that were apparently intended for display. Does anyone know of a situation in which the juncker neusilber crosses, unmarked with non-magnetic cores were used for display or were late war production? This would be in contrast to the understanding I have had of these pieces, as it has been stated by Pieter and Gordon Williamson that these were EARLY crosses. The rub becomes if there is a "mint" neusilber cross, how does one determine if it is neusilber or real silver?



WOW! Thanks Dietrich. That is great information! Thanks for the effort in showing us all that. I think that gives a very good guide with regard to weight in evaluating these pieces. Also, given the difference in sliver vs copper/nickle/magnesium frames, would you expect less distinct die features than a silver frame cross? Thanks again

[Dietrich Maerz]

The rub becomes if there is a "mint" neusilber cross, how does one determine if it is neusilber or real silver?

As explained above, I guess.

Dietrich

[tom hansen]

Sorry-


I guess we were posting at the same time with my edit. Thanks very much again for that analysis. That is very helpful .