Opening the mystery box: Rettenmaier, maker of the EK II clasp.

[kriztof]

I've just found a selection of these in my old files with various marks ranging from L/4 & 21 and unmarked...

[ben bijker]

I see now Trevor ... after the explanation of the zinc 'bubbling' that there are spots that match . I see 2 destinct different types of the un-even cut out Spange

I think this is the Deumer Ben was thinking :

Douglas

Hi Douglas,

that is a Souval, the one with the safety-pin attachment.

No, the Deumer fake I was referring to is VERY close to an authentic Deumer.

Chris posted some pics, and there you can see the evolution of this type of fake.

As I have mentioned before: I haven't seen this type of prongs on authentic clasps.

Prongs are usually easy to end, but the prongs on the " L/59 " and the fakes that Chris shows are very stiff

[Giel VW]

Hi guys,

Thanks you so much for the opinions, but everything posted here just simply doesn't match with the Rettenmaier spange. Altough the 21 clasp did seem to be a bit close designwise, I see the L/4 clasp and Souval clasps are now also part of the game. These things DON'T match and I don't know why they are even brought up.

The only valid argument would be that the prongs are stiff like on other fakes (which are out there with hundreds but not to be found on the forum all of a sudden)

Here a picture of an other fake Rettenmaier spange from the hoard, this one kept its original finish and was strangely put again in an original LDO box with L/59 stamp.

[Giel VW]

I'm ok with the fact that one doesn't like this spange aesthetically, I'm also no fan of this rather ugly design, but please do not call or shout fake at it without any other valid point than "I don't like the looks of it".

Remember this spange is made in '44, I hope the fake shouters aren't naïve enough to believe that the quality of zink awards was the same as in the beginning of the war. It might be worth adding as well that zink spanges are far more uncommon than early nickle silver or tombak spanges in general.

[ben bijker]

I'm ok with the fact that one doesn't like this spange aesthetically, I'm also no fan of this rather ugly design, but please do not call or shout fake at it without any other valid point than "I don't like the looks of it".

Remember this spange is made in '44, I hope the fake shouters aren't naïve enough to believe that the quality of zink awards was the same as in the beginning of the war. It might be worth adding as well that zink spanges are far more uncommon than early nickle silver or tombak spanges in general.

Since you bring it up again Giel: where did I say that there were hundreds of these (on the forum)??

What are your arguments other then a drawing in a cataloge and the fact that one or 2 popped up in an L/59 marked box?
Putting a fake in an original box is not that hard you know...

You KNOW that collecting and judging awards is gut-feeling for a big part.

I am getting the feeling that you are trying to ridicule me because I don't agree with you on this clasp.
If you put up a questionable piece for opinions the keep in mind that some people may disagree with you.
Otherwise there would be no discussion, would it?

Call the stiff prongs a non-argument, to me it is one of the red flags when I judge a clasp that isn't textbook..

If you want to believe it is authentic: great
Congrats on a new discovery

[Giel VW]

Since you bring it up again Giel: where did I say that there were hundreds of these (on the forum)??

What are your arguments other then a drawing in a cataloge and the fact that one or 2 popped up in an L/59 marked box?
Putting a fake in an original box is not that hard you know...

You KNOW that collecting and judging awards is gut-feeling for a big part.

I am getting the feeling that you are trying to ridicule me because I don't agree with you on this clasp.
If you put up a questionable piece for opinions the keep in mind that some people may disagree with you.
Otherwise there would be no discussion, would it?

Call the stiff prongs a non-argument, to me it is one of the red flags when I judge a clasp that isn't textbook..

If you want to believe it is authentic: great
Congrats on a new discovery

Hi Ben,

That's not what I'm trying to do. You just started the thread yourself with "Well, over the past years I have seen a large number of these clasps passing by, the last 2 or 3 years with a modified head" With large numbers I would assume that is more than 10, right?

My argument is that this was part of an untouched hoard find... if that's something one doesn't believe in to gain information, it becomes totally impossible to find out more about dubious or unknown TR items.

And I did agree with you on the stiff prongs (valid argument I said, not non-argument), please read my reply again

[ben bijker]

Hi Ben,

That's not what I'm trying to do. You just started the thread yourself with "Well, over the past years I have seen a large number of these clasps passing by, the last 2 or 3 years with a modified head" With large numbers I would assume that is more than 10, right?

My argument is that this was part of an untouched hoard find... if that's something one doesn't believe in to gain information, it becomes totally impossible to find out more about dubious or unknown TR items.

And I did agree with you on the stiff prongs (valid argument I said, not non-argument), please read my reply again

more then then is not the same as "hundreds"

If I read your reply like you wrote it, you aren't considering it as a valid argument at all:
"The only valid argument would be that the prongs are stiff like on other fakes (which are out there with hundreds but not to be found on the forum all of a sudden)

An old saying here that can be found on the forum: believe the item, not the story.

Again: if you're happy with it and want to believe it's authentic: fine with me.
I'm not convinced at all.

[kriztof]

I've been comparing these spangen, Giels and the one shown in the P&L catalog, and I can see more of a resemblance between the two than I can with the non-zinc models.
This could be due to the soft details of Giels, but the zinc model is the only one of the bunch that doesn't show the three prong vein effect on the last laurel leaf before the eagles talons.
It also matches the drawing more closely in regard to the uneven lower wing, where it meets the leg, also the head/beak/eye. That still doesn't mean that I am comfortable with this piece. Simply that I see a few minor resemblances.

We're basing this on the P&L drawing, I would be interested to know the date of the catalog and if there is any more info.

No Trev, I'm
Not suggesting that the catalog is a fake ;-) but in order to make an accurate determination, the more details the merrier, you know that better than most.

I suppose it's like suddenly finding out that souvals post war Eks were not post war, you would want a lot more proof before excepting them, even if there was one drawing in a catalog.

For all we know, someone could have made a set of dies based on the drawing back in 1962?
Alternately, these could also be wartime produced? Possibly someone added the stamps to try and make them more authentic because of the poor design, they would, and are, seen as fakes due to these two facts.

As Giel states, personal preference has a lot to do with it, and yes, I find them ugly, but that isn't interfering with me trying to be open minded, as I think we are all trying to be.

What is causing doubt, is that for decades, these have been deemed fake, everything we know about spotting fakes is incorporated in these birds.

On the other hand, those with something to gain from them being genuine will be their greatest defenders.
So it works both ways, to be fair.

I think this is where we're at right now.

So like the unknown maker spange and a number of others that are in the orphan category (but are well made and symmetrical) it's best to wait until more evidence comes to light, hopefully we can all agree on that for now.

This being said, personally, I would not feel comfortable, in good faith, giving these pieces a thumbs up to a potential buyer.

Has anyone seen or identified an L/59 1st class Spange, marked or unmarked?
There is one offered on Giels sales sheet.
We can see that the P&L 1st class bears no resemblance to the 2nd class. So where has this popped into P&L from? Were they buying from or advertising for Rettenmaier or are we saying it's a P&L, Godet, S&L or Rettenmaier ?

[Leroy]

Looking for these? Don't know the date of the catalog, but I would guess prior to March, 1941.

[Thomas Durante]

Hi guys,

Correct me if I am wrong as I don't follow spanges as much as other areas, but are you guys saying that there are no originals of this spange design? None have popped up in vet groupings or ground dug or in period photographs, etc. to lend credence to them and that "some" of this design could be originals?

If this design is found in the P&L catalog, then these spanges must have been around since before mid 1941 (when P&L's license was taking away). So that would put this spange design pretty early in the war. And likewise, if Giel's spange is truly wartime, then that means this spange design was also around late in the war (due to the zinc base metal and the catalog date).

All this would suggest that this "design" was around from early war to the end of the war, so it is strange to me that if this design was around during most of the war, why haven't we found any in vet groupings or with other provenance? Surely some would have popped up already with good provenance, no? Shouldn't "some" of these spanges be originals?

Tom

[Norm F]

If this design is found in the P&L catalog, then these spanges must have been around since before mid 1941 (when P&L's license was taking away). So that would put this spange design pretty early in the war. And likewise, if Giel's spange is truly wartime, then that means this spange design was also around late in the war (due to the zinc base metal and the catalog date).

Hi Tom,

As another non-Spange guy, I was thinking the same thing.

Another interesting thing is that the Minesweeper and Destroyer badge obverse designs in the P&L catalog are the same design used by several makers (Mayer, F&B, Souval, etc.) and also by the "flatback" maker now linked to Rettenmaier. In other words, it appears that P&L and Rettenmaier shared a common die supplier for some of their awards. If the dot patterns on the "Rettenmaier" and P&L Spangen were identical you could postulate Rettenmaier got a hold of P&L's dies after P&L was disbarred, but if there are small differences then more likely they are sister dies from hubs derived from a common master, obtained from a common source (like Wissmann, for example).

Just as the zinc Rettenmaier-attributed Spange appears worse quality than the early war products, so too the zinc Rettenmaier KM badges are relatively poor quality compared with early wartime pieces. In fact, this late wartime hoard find aside, considering the sometimes dubious range in quality of "flatbacks" and Rettenmaier's continuance in business post-war, there's no reason why he couldn't have functioned similarly to S&L or Souval with the ongoing assembly and disposal of a large stock of leftovers in the decades after the war.

The fakes with various spurious marks of the same design could be an unrelated "Floch-like" enterprise that just muddies the water further.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Thomas Durante]

.....there's no reason why he couldn't have functioned similarly to S&L or Souval with the ongoing assembly and disposal of a large stock of leftovers in the decades after the war.

Shouldn't be any leftovers Norm since Rettenmaier didn't produce anything during the war

Tom

[Leroy]

Tom - Why don't you ask them if that whole LDO number thing was a mistake...

[Dietrich Maerz]

Shouldn't be any leftovers Norm since Rettenmaier didn't produce anything during the war

Tom

This is the typical attitude that has been succesfully formed by the Green Party in Germany! Even if you show them a catalog they would say it was not us. Why? Because if they would "admit" that they "did it", the Green Party might request boycotting of the company, will arrange for a candle vigilance and will ask for retribution payment. I fully understand them - pure survival mode!

This Green Party has "re-educated" the German people nearly as good as the Nazis did. One has to lie about the own past in order to have a future and at every corner a "know-it-all" school teacher watches what car you drive, what food you eat and what plants you plant!

By the way, I got the same answer in 2006 from S&L .....

[Norm F]

Hi Dietrich,

I don't have any knowledge of German politics but it doesn't make any sense to me that Metallwarenfabriken who manufactured awards during wartime should be targeted today any more than the rest of German industry. It's obvious that most of industrial Germany was commandeered for the war effort, and pretty senseless for a company to pretend they suspended their business during the 3rd Reich and only started up again in 1945. If Volkswagen, Mercedes, Siemens, Hugo Boss, etc. don't experience significant censure today, why should Rettenmaier or S&L? Unless of course they continued to manufacture swastika-bearing items post-war...

Just wondering.

Best regards,
---Norm