Opening the mystery box: Rettenmaier, maker of the EK II clasp.

[Douglas 5]

Quite interesting these findings :

Trevor ... a question to post 31 : As I read it ... you are saying these 2 date bars are from the same mother or master die ?
Would the pebbling not have to match ?

Douglas

[ben bijker]

Hi Ben,

But you say there are hundred of similar fakes, there must be one to find here on the WAF then?

I'm really open for a debate here, but there has to be something against on the table. The robot fake is from being comparable.

Well, if you look for "big shoulder gap fake" or "helmet fake" you should be able to find some.
They come along all the time.

The example Trevor shows is IMO from the same die, but with a re-worked head.

I don't know if the fake Deumer was shown her, but they pop up from time to time at online-auctions.

I only mentioned the robot fake because of the prongs, not to compare it to the alleged L/59 clasp.

But I said it before and will say it again: I have only expressed my opinion, nothing more.
Everybody that wants to believe this clasp is a contemporary piece, feel free to do so.
I'm not claiming I know it all, but I ma entitled to have my opinion.

[streptile]

Quite interesting these findings :
Trevor ... a question to post 31 : As I read it ... you are saying these 2 date bars are from the same mother or master die ?
Would the pebbling not have to match ?
Douglas

Hi Douglas,

In fact I think they are from the same die, not just the same mother but I hedged my words a bit. The pebbling does match, you just have to get past the multiple bubbles on the finish of the zinc, which are often as large as the individual pebbles (blue arrows). Try to focus on the larger areas of concurrence (red arrows) and you'll see what I mean.

I've asked Giel for a good scan of the wreath. As soon as I get it I'll do further comparisons of that area, where I expect to find a match also.

[kriztof]

Here are a few links Giel



http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ap+fake&page=2

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ht=fake+spange

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ht=fake+spange

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ht=fake+spange

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ht=fake+spange

[streptile]

Actually I kind of like one of those:





It's the kind of thing you have to judge in-hand, but I'd take a risk now seeing Giel's. As I said, I am 100% sure a Spange of this design did exist during the period. The catalogue, not Giel's Spange, proves that. But Giel's Spange, in my opinion, is probably an authentic piece.

[Douglas 5]

I see now Trevor ... after the explanation of the zinc 'bubbling' that there are spots that match . I see 2 destinct different types of the un-even cut out Spange

I think this is the Deumer Ben was thinking :

Douglas

[kriztof]

I don't see the pebbling matching up on these two either, nor the centers of the 9 as I have attempted to illustrate.

I'm trying to keep an open opinion on these and to be as fair as possible, which I feel everyone is.


Chris

[Douglas 5]

I know Chris ... some spots match and others do not . ...like the top edge of the 3 ... as one is flat and the other a bit concave ?

Douglas

[Douglas 5]

Here an uneven cutout L4 fake with no pebbling . There has to be different generations of modified fakes off a common master ... slightly different in appearance . This makes it harder to determine the 'true' original which one has to be .

Douglas

[Douglas 5]

More:

[streptile]

Hi Chris,

To my eye, you've circled a few areas of concurrence in green on both Spanges.

Beyond that, I should say that the comparison of the pebbling is somewhat irrelevant. On the one hand we have a 21-marked probably-postwar piece, and on the other hand we have an unmarked potential-wartime piece. If the dies match, then we've demonstrated this: if Giel's is authentic, the same dies were in use after the war. This much we know already. So matching the pebbling (which, by the way, does match in my opinion) doesn't really have too many implications for the Spange. What implications it has for other Rettenmaier awards, I shudder to think... which is where this is leading, I suppose.

Finally, I'd just like to ask: does anyone still doubt that a Spange of this design (no, not necessarily from this same die) did exist during the period?

[kriztof]

Hi Chris,

Beyond that, I should say that the comparison of the pebbling is somewhat irrelevant.
So matching the pebbling (which, by the way, does match in my opinion) doesn't really have too many implications for the Spange.

Finally, I'd just like to ask: does anyone still doubt that a Spange of this design (no, not necessarily from this same die) did exist during the period?

Trev,
when the pebbling is used as a comparison, as you, I and others have attempted to use it to fortify our reasoning's, then yes, it does matter, as it is being used as a means of either proving or disproving one thing or another and could, I say could, sway opinions in either direction.
As pebbling patterns have been used many times to compare dies, I feel that it is one very important tool in many for making an accurate determination.

Even IF the pebbling matched, which in my opinion it doesn't, what is to say that these dies simply weren't used post war to manufacture spangen for the large demand by the victors? Or that they weren't simply fabricated by a jeweler trying to make a few $$ to survive on?

This piece doesn't go with the craftsmanship, style & design that we've come to expect for such an award.
I could live with ugly, as that is personal preference, but bad workmanship, uneven design, is or should have been, unacceptable.

I'll keep an open mind about it, but I have never liked this type of bird, but that is my personal preference, but even IF, in the future, it turned out to be a wartime manufacture, I still will think that it is a badly made piece.


Chris

[streptile]

Hi Chris,

Nice to see you posting again; seems you were absent for some time.

I don't know what a pebbling match here would prove or disprove beyond what we already suspect -- viz., that this die was used postwar. Maybe I'm missing something.

Also, I honestly don't know how anyone could argue that this design was not used in the period short of arguing that the P&L catalogue is a fake. Is that what you are suggesting?

[Cesare Cornia]

personally, I would NOT like to have one of these in my collection...if it's real, and it don't seems to be, it's the most widely produced ek spange (with little variations), even more than all other makers together
I've seen in the years many of these with a fake aging, and too many sellers offering them for a cheap price...
really, at a first look I don't like this badge, but if I would look at it everyday probably I would find something nice in it, like always...
at a first look, I don't like so much even the writing on the case, and without it the case don't matches the badge

[kriztof]

My dear Trevor, how could I possibly say a catalog is a fake when I don't have it in hand
But it would be nice to see the rest of the page, is there any further explanation or description, anything other than a drawing/photo/lithograph, what date is it from ?

They also list a 1st class spange, I know I've been away pursuing my other hobby and I may have missed the discovery of the first class?

Conversely, we could assume that this was an artists conception of what "Might" have been designed but never was produced? The date on the sheet looks to be 1944, so pretty late in the game, have we seen an earlier price list from this maker that lists spangen in their repertoire of awards?

I'm not trying to be funny here, I'm simply asking the questions that come into my mind as I am veeeery wary of spangen, especially one that has shown up bearing any number of false stamps and has all the attributes of a fake.

Catalog pictures can be misleading and the artists conception that is shown does bear a striking resemblance to those in question.

The Shickle 1st class spange comes to mind, as their catalog photo looks nothing like the actual produced item, and for a long time they were considered to be Mayer cast copies, until a few turned up with the L/15 mark, thankfully.

So, this being stated, I can find discrepancies between the catalog pic and the physical pieces, the one thing that does hold true is the uneven lower wing.
For me, as I said earlier, based on what we all know about spotting fake spangen, the warning signs etc.. I will keep my opinion at 90-10 until more is known either way.


Chris