Opening the mystery box: Rettenmaier, maker of the EK II clasp.

[streptile]

Well, it was slightly hard to say for of the usual host of reasons:

• different finish
• die wear
• different scanners
• different lighting

...however, I can say that the "21" SP2 and Giel's unmarked L59 SP2 seem to be at least made from dies with the same lineage (same mother or master die).

I've asked Giel for a good scan of the wreath to confirm this finding.

One in black and white for good measure:

[kriztof]

Sort of interesting how summarily this find was dismissed seven months ago:

EK 2 Wiederholungsspange L/59 LDO Etui

I guess the lesson is: presentation matters!

I would say that the spange mentioned in this link was summarily dismissed due to it meeting all the criteria of a known fake. And for simply being what it is, a very ugly and poorly made piece.

Obviously the poor photos are no help either

Chris

[ben bijker]

I can only agree to that.
IMO it is still a fake, no matter what box you put it in.
It keeps popping up everywhere, with minor modifications and with or without mm.

It will take a lot more to convince me that it is a wartime original.

[Flemming]

Take a look at the odd things that only a tracing of a photo of this exact piece could possibly render. The irregular shapes of the inside feathers (red and blue below), the weirdly shaped segmented claws, the feather count and position.

There's no question that the P&L drawing is a drawing of this Spange design. Can we at least all agree on that?

I can agree to that also.

/Flemming

[Giel VW]

I can only agree to that.
IMO it is still a fake, no matter what box you put it in.
It keeps popping up everywhere, with minor modifications and with or without mm.

It will take a lot more to convince me that it is a wartime original.

Hi Ben

I agree with you on the 21 and L/4 spanges, but I hope you can review your opinion regarding the zink spange which I launched this thread with. This piece just has everything one would expect from a late war zink piece, up to the silver evaporation on top of it!

[Leroy]

So a die of this design is still in use?

[Bob Hritz]

So a die of this design is still in use?

I believe the original obverse die was found and used with a new reverse die. It is easy to change reverse dies, when they are flat, and it is very easy to change them to add various markings.

Bob Hritz

[streptile]

This piece just has everything one would expect from a late war zink piece, up to the silver evaporation on top of it!

I think the P&L catalogue shows conclusively that this design was used during WWII. And I think Giel's Spange is probably the Spange we've seen with the best chance of being an authentic period piece.

So a die of this design is still in use?

Yes. Or at least it was, for a long time after the war. The L59/P&L die was obviously salvaged after the war and used to make restrikes with various markings.

[Leroy]

When did the collector market first pay attention to P&L?

[ben bijker]

Hi Ben

I agree with you on the 21 and L/4 spanges, but I hope you can review your opinion regarding the zink spange which I launched this thread with. This piece just has everything one would expect from a late war zink piece, up to the silver evaporation on top of it!

Well, over the past years I have seen a large number of these clasps passing by, the last 2 or 3 years with a modified head.
I just don't believe in these, and it will take a lot more to convince me.

On the other hand: it's just my opinion, and everybody is free to have his (or hers)

I am just wondering why this is the first (or second) one after all these years, while there are hundreds of similar fakes around.

Just doesn't make sense...

On the evaporating silver on the zinc: I am very much convinced that with modern techniques this can be faked as well.
I have seen a number of Deumer clasps in zinc with migrated silver and the same kind of prongs, VERY convincing. (but fake)

Another thing are the prongs: 90 % (or more) with this setup are fake.
There are a few exceptions, but those are either clasps from a known maker with an unconventional set-up OR repaired clasps.

How stiff are these prongs??

[tinmantis]

who is that member who first showed this spange? (fantastic) where did he find it?
is this find completely untouched?
and
I must agree with Ben, I've seen awesome authentic looking faded finishes on fake zinc pieces recently too
regards
jon

[streptile]

I would say that the spange mentioned in this link was summarily dismissed due to it meeting all the criteria of a known fake.

who is that member who first showed this spange? (fantastic) where did he find it?

Maybe it wasn't clear but the piece in the linked post and Giel's are the same.


.

[Giel VW]

Well, over the past years I have seen a large number of these clasps passing by, the last 2 or 3 years with a modified head.
I just don't believe in these, and it will take a lot more to convince me.

On the other hand: it's just my opinion, and everybody is free to have his (or hers)

I am just wondering why this is the first (or second) one after all these years, while there are hundreds of similar fakes around.

Just doesn't make sense...

On the evaporating silver on the zinc: I am very much convinced that with modern techniques this can be faked as well.
I have seen a number of Deumer clasps in zinc with migrated silver and the same kind of prongs, VERY convincing. (but fake)

Another thing are the prongs: 90 % (or more) with this setup are fake.
There are a few exceptions, but those are either clasps from a known maker with an unconventional set-up OR repaired clasps.

How stiff are these prongs??

Hi Ben,

Can you post some of these spanges you mention?

I never touch prongs, but if I try to make some movement in them they won't bent.

[ben bijker]

I'm sorry Giel, I have a bad habit of not storing all pics that might be interesting, it would have come in handy now.....
So I can't prove it by showing pics.

All original prongs bend pretty easily, and I am not referring to "opening" them , but bending the prong itself.
It's one of the red flags on the Deumer copies I mentioned, but also a characteristic of the so called "robot" fake.

The Deumers are zinc with very little remains of silver, have the same prongs as the one you show here (very stiff as well) and are usually sold as " ground dug"

[Giel VW]

Hi Ben,

But you say there are hundred of similar fakes, there must be one to find here on the WAF then?

I'm really open for a debate here, but there has to be something against on the table. The robot fake is from being comparable.