Prestige of the Iron Cross

[Stephen Stout]

Hi everyone I was wondering in relation to American awards how prestigious is the Iron Cross? I have been in the hobby for awhile and I am very lucky enough to have two EK2s in my possession as parts of groupings that have been awarded. I have always found those awards very interesting and wondering what act of valor it was awarded for.

Now the question I have is the EK2 comparable to an American Bronze Star with a V device or a Silver Star (I know the Bronze Star is mostly awarded for merit these days)? Also what is the comparison for the EK1 (Silver Star?), DKiG (Army Service Cross?) and the RK (most likely Medal of Honor)? Another question, throughout the war into 1994-1945 did the prestige degrade with higher amount of the awarded? I know all receipts were recommended for the award but did they ever relax the criteria vs 1939-1943? I also understand every German soldier was proud of this award. I am just wanting to learn.

Pics below of my two awarded EK2s:

[Knight_ridergta]

I have wondered the same thing! I also wondered if the current US Global War on Terrorism Service Medal was comparable to the KVK 2nd class without swords and the Global War on Terrorism Expeditionary medal was the same for the KVK 2nd class with swords. I wonder if anyone has any other thoughts on this

[Stephen Stout]

I have wondered the same thing! I also wondered if the current US Global War on Terrorism Service Medal was comparable to the KVK 2nd class without swords and the Global War on Terrorism Expeditionary medal was the same for the KVK 2nd class with swords. I wonder if anyone has any other thoughts on this

To be honest I would put the Bronze Star close to a KVK 2nd Class with Swords.

Requirements for the Bronze Star:

"Heroic or meritorious achievement or service."

[Tony T-S]

This is stating the obvious, but it all comes down to how hard it was to win these things in their respective countries. It also, as has been mentioned, is about the criteria used. The RK for example was far easier to earn than the VC. VC winners since the award began can only be counted in the low hundreds where as the RK had 7322 awardees.

The thing is each was awarded for different things. I would imagine that various RK winners performed acts of bravery that would have won the VC easily, but as RKs were also awarded to Generals for military victories etc then the award becomes a different one to the VC, and so it's not really fair to compare them.

I think I like the idea of grades rather than suicidal bravery to win just one award. It is actually possible to win bars to the VC, but I'm not sure that anyone actually has. I'd have to check that.

[jambobbyb]

Tony I believe there are three double VC winners, Surgeon Captain Arthur Martin-Leake, Captain Noel Chavasse and Captain Charles Upham. VC and RK are totally different awards.

[Dietrich Maerz]

I have wondered the same thing! I also wondered if the current US Global War on Terrorism Service Medal was comparable to the KVK 2nd class without swords and the Global War on Terrorism Expeditionary medal was the same for the KVK 2nd class with swords. I wonder if anyone has any other thoughts on this

What are the requirements to be awarded with the Global War on Terrorism Service Medal?

[Alan Wilson]

Certainly a good question. IMHO comparing the awards, valor or meritorious, of any nation is very hard to do. The award criteria often varies between nations. For example, where a bronze star for valor or a silver star is awarded for one valorous action the iron cross could be awarded for valor or meritorious service. Alan

[Stephen Stout]

What are the requirements to be awarded with the Global War on Terrorism Service Medal?

It is a "I was there medal." Nothing special.... Requirements:

"Direct support in service to the Global War on Terrorism or overseas direct service to the Global War on Terrorism." Any soldier on Active Duty orders can receive this medal pretty much, including those that have never been deployed.

[Alan Wilson]

The Global War on Terrorism medal (GWOT) ia awarded to any member of the armed forces during the dates specified. The campaign medal for Operation Iraqi Freedom (Iraq) and Operation Enduring Freedom (Afghanistan) are awarded for service in those respective theaters and can be awarded multiple times based on number of tours. Addtional tours are indicated by adding campaign stars to the ribbon. Alan

[byterock]

I do not think you can compare the IC or KvK to any US medal as both where 'Orders' not single decorations as well I think all can be awarded more than once not so with the IC and Kvk.

The only one that would be close is the 'Legion of Merit' which is sort of the same as the KVK but only because the LoM has 'Levels'

However unlike the KVk the LoM levels are conferred by rank not by prerequisite and you could get it more than once.

So if you are a 'Officer' Of the Legion of Merit you would have to be an Admiral or General.

However, in theory at least, you could be a lowey 'Fahrer' or 'Gefreiter' and get the Knight Cross of the Kvk, though I doubt this ever happened.

[Dietrich Maerz]

The Global War against Terrorism is - based on the "requirements' - more like the East Medal or the "Flower War Medals." No comparison to the lowest grade of a Military Order at all, no matter how liberal the lowest garde was awarded or not.
(2,511,915 with Swords and 28,166 w/o Swords to the Heer per 12. March 1945)

[Brian R]

I think it would be hard to find a complete parallel. Also, I think it's important to consider that the medal was viewed differently during WWII at the beginning of the war compared to the end. The award of the EK2 in particular was definitely diluted by 1944/1945, relative to 1939. I don't think it's fair to say it wasn't seen as an honor in the war's final year, as I think it depended on the situation (the awardee, the circumstances, the branch, the front, etc.), but one can definitely argue that there was a difference between awards given in the weeks following the Polish campaign relative to awards given in the winter of 1945. The amount of casualties, the massive defeats, and the millions of bestowals certainly had a effect on the EK's prestige in that it was ever changing, at least to some extent.

[Montgomery Burns]

there is a reprint 1939/1943 regulations ...there you can find the real status of the iron cross .
as well as all others ...

and please don't compare again with terrorists medals of modern time ,,,

its stupid

[nzef1940]

Tony I believe there are three double VC winners, Surgeon Captain Arthur Martin-Leake, Captain Noel Chavasse and Captain Charles Upham. VC and RK are totally different awards.

100% correct, the first two chaps were Brits and won there awards and bars in WW1.

My childhood hero the New Zealander Charles Upham is the only WW2 double VC.

[Stephen Stout]

The Global War against Terrorism is - based on the "requirements' - more like the East Medal or the "Flower War Medals." No comparison to the lowest grade of a Military Order at all, no matter how liberal the lowest garde was awarded or not.
(2,511,915 with Swords and 28,166 w/o Swords to the Heer per 12. March 1945)

Also to be honest I would surely place an East Medal above the War on Terrorism ones since soldiers are usually awarded those for entering Active Duty service for 60 days. It is also just like the National Defense Medal that is awarded for serving in any compactly during a state of war.

I think it would be hard to find a complete parallel. Also, I think it's important to consider that the medal was viewed differently during WWII at the beginning of the war compared to the end. The award of the EK2 in particular was definitely diluted by 1944/1945, relative to 1939. I don't think it's fair to say it wasn't seen as an honor in the war's final year, as I think it depended on the situation (the awardee, the circumstances, the branch, the front, etc.), but one can definitely argue that there was a difference between awards given in the weeks following the Polish campaign relative to awards given in the winter of 1945. The amount of casualties, the massive defeats, and the millions of bestowals certainly had a effect on the EK's prestige in that it was ever changing, at least to some extent.

Brian, I think we can find a parallel because valor is valor. I do agree with you that the award had to be view differently from 1939-1943 vs 1944-1945 due to the amount awarded during those periods.

there is a reprint 1939/1943 regulations ...there you can find the real status of the iron cross .
as well as all others ...

and please don't compare again with terrorists medals of modern time ,,,

its stupid

What does the regulation say in the book?


So here are some requirements for various wards that I have found:

German WWII Awards (Source: WAF main website):

The War Merit Cross 2nd Class with Swords was presented to Military Personnel for bravery not necessarily in the face of the enemy. (Does not require valor in combat and can be awarded for merit)

Iron Cross 2nd Class: The official criteria for the award was a single act of bravery in the face of the enemy, or actions that were clearly above and beyond the call of duty. (This award requires valor while in combat).

Iron Cross 1st Class: In order to receive the Iron Cross 1st Class Heer and Waffen SS men would have to perform three to four further acts of courage from the one that earned him the 2nd Class. For Luftwaffe pilots when they achieved six or seven confirmed kills. (Define further acts of courage?)

German Cross in Gold was awarded to military personnel for 6-8 exceptional acts of bravery or achievements in combat.

Knights Cross: Awarded to holders of the Iron Cross to recognize extreme battlefield bravery or outstanding military leadership.

American Awards:

Bronze Star: It may be awarded for acts of heroism, acts of merit, or meritorious service in a combat zone. When awarded for acts of heroism, the medal is awarded with the "V" device. (Without the "V" device it is comparable to the War Merit Cross with Swords, but with the "V" device it could be comparable to the EK2).

Silver Star: The Silver Star is awarded for gallantry not justifying the award of one of the next higher valor awards – the Distinguished Service Cross, the Navy Cross, or the Air Force Cross. The gallantry displayed must have taken place while in action against an enemy of the United States, while engaged in military operations involving conflict with an opposing foreign force, or while serving with friendly foreign forces engaged in an armed conflict against an opposing armed force in which the United States is not a belligerent party.

Air Force pilots are often considered eligible to receive a Silver Star upon becoming an ace ( having five or more confirmed aerial kills). Please note that the confirmed kill requirement is less than the EK1.

Distinguished Service Cross: Extraordinary heroism not justifying the Medal of Honor; and the act or acts of heroism must have been so notable and have involved risk of life so extraordinary as to set the individual apart from his or her comrades.

Medal of Honor: Conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of life above and beyond the call of duty.



So by looking at this it is safe to assume to following since the term "valor" is based on the situation:

KVK2 w/ Swords is comparable to a Bronze Star without a "V" Device.

EK2 is comparable to a Bronze Star with a "V" Device and possibly the Silver Star.

EK1 is comparable to the Silver Star or outclasses it due to the kill requirement for pilots. 6-7 for the EK1 vs 5 for the Silver Star.

German Cross in Gold is possible to compare to the Distinguished Service Cross since the RK can be awarded for a single act of valor.

RK can be comparable to the Medal of Honor excluding all those awarded the RK for outstanding military leadership because they would get the American Distinguished Service Medal.

What does everyone think???