some are red some are orange

[Schurgers]

Hi everyone,<O></O>

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I have got this question about the colour of (in this case) the war merit medal. Why is the collar red in some ribbons red and in some ribbons orange. I always thought that is was because of decolourisation but now I own a mint ribbon which also has the orange.<O></O>

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Willem

[Peter Wiking]

Good question. That is an answer i search to. Some Iron Cross ribbons have orange color instead of red.

Cheers.
Peter

[Terrence]

Mint but still old. The chemical structure needed to produce what appears to be a certain color is very complex. Look in an organic chemistry book at the structure needed to produce the color blue for example. Some red and green dye chemical structures are particularly unstable. It takes very little to get them to change into something different from their original color. Sometimes it is from UV light, sometimes chemicals in the air. I have a memel medal ribbon in mint condition. Three months exposed to Chicago air (kept away from light) and the red and green are fading already on the part exposed to the air. So, I vaccuum sealed them. The deterioration stopped. Sometimes just sealing them in a frame behind glass is enough (as long as you keep them away from UV light).

Best regards,
Terrence

[tinmantis]

wow Terrence
knowledge is power!
jon

[Peter Wiking]

Thanks Terrence. That is both serius and interesting info. I´m doing a research on ribbons so if you dont mind i will keep that info in my records.

Cheers.
Peter

[WalterB]

Mint but still old. The chemical structure needed to produce what appears to be a certain color is very complex. Look in an organic chemistry book at the structure needed to produce the color blue for example. Some red and green dye chemical structures are particularly unstable. It takes very little to get them to change into something different from their original color. Sometimes it is from UV light, sometimes chemicals in the air. I have a memel medal ribbon in mint condition. Three months exposed to Chicago air (kept away from light) and the red and green are fading already on the part exposed to the air. So, I vaccuum sealed them. The deterioration stopped. Sometimes just sealing them in a frame behind glass is enough (as long as you keep them away from UV light).

Best regards,
Terrence

Terrence, if the effect is indeed some physical factor (i.e., light, chemicals, etc.), then the affected ribbon would probably show different levels (or shades) of damage. The ribbon posted on the initial thread shows an even shade of orange. Could it be that the Germans issued both red and orange colored ribbons? What specifically comes to mind is the standard Red colored KC ribbon and the "Loy" orange colored KC ribbon. The Loy was issued orange and the orangeness of the color was not the result of physical factors. Maybe this is the case with the ribbons for these types of medals as well?

[Terrence]

Dear Walter,

The chemical breakdown for some color structures can be fairly uniform and complete. That is, it takes only a little bit to change or some changes are almost spontaneous and complete with out exposure. Thus, then the new structure typically remains stable but it is different. For example the red to orange. If one compares the oranges, they are all very similar. Think of wine. If not stable, it turns to acetic acid (vinigar). The reaction is fairly complete. Another example, hydrogen peroxide, a very potent yet relatively unstable structure. Simply turns to water when out of its protected environment. Another, the structure formation of carbon steel when it is tempered. Take a surgical blade and do the ole wives tale, heat it up with a flame to sterilize it, what you get is sterile steel that lost its surgical sharp edge with out ever using it. The carbon in the steel takes on a different structure that is no longer compatible with holding that really sharp edge.

But... yes absolutely there were oranges used!! But... because the red in the iron cross was supposed to represent the color of blood. This was a pretty important color for this medal.

Best regards,
T

[Frank Heukemes]

Hi guys, sometimes the reasons are simple. I have learned that the earlier ribbons of the KVK medal are more orange/brownish, later ones are bright red. Same as with the orange vs. red EK2 and KC ribbons.

[George Stimson]

Three different colored EK ribbons. (On the court-mount the tucked under part of the ribbon is the same color as the exposed part.)

[Mark S.]

organic materials, degradation, fade, what ever it is, some of these are worse than others. This medal has tan lines, probably from UV exposure.

[Terrence]

Good example of degradation consistent with UV/chemicals in the air exposure Mark. Great examples George for the IC (not what I would attribute to UV/air chemical exposure). Yes, it could be as simple as Frank says, oranges were just used. I cannot rule that possiblity out. Oranges are certainly cheaper and easier to produce and one avoids dealing with the issues of structure instability. If one looks at the paint of red colored automobiles, you will notice most are really variations on orange. I am not an expert with the KVK issued colors. However there was and still is a problem with chemical structure stability for some colors, especially reds. I believe these early orange ribbons in the IC were a victim of this process. Just supposition, but given the importance of the addition of red to the IC and the pride of the german government in issuing these awards, it makes sense to me. This is only my opinion.


Best regards,
T