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**Tim Tynan** · 07-29-2002, 11:09 PM

57 RK Markings

Grant,

For what it is worth, the source listed below only mentions the 800 marking if marked at all. I know that the Oak Leaves devices were marked 925. Hope this helps some.

Previtera, Stephen, The Iron Time: A History of the Iron Cross. Va.: Winidore Press, 1999. Page 400

Tim

**Grant Broadhurst** · 07-30-2002, 12:50 AM

Hello Tim ,

Thanks for the info ,

which begs the question who is making the 925 silver content ones and why ?????

Bemused

Grant

**Adrian** · 07-30-2002, 01:30 PM

Hello,

Whilst on the subject of these crosses - can anyone give me any info on where to buy one??

Best Regards,
Adrian.

**Dez H** · 07-30-2002, 07:58 PM

To answer both Grant's and Adrian's questions have a look at this on ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=1369713339

This is the only 925 marked piece that I have seen in ’57 RK’s. This picture is so blurry that it’s virtually impossible to see anything from the photo but you may wish to email the seller and ask for some better shots and info. I am sure it will not be long before we see fake 1957 pieces on the market, especially in the Iron Cross series, as the price of these pieces is climbing quite quickly.

Regards

Dez

**Gordon Williamson** · 07-31-2002, 01:12 AM

925 is the English "Sterling" silver grade. I wouldn't say 925 was never used by the Germans because you do find it occasionally on original pieces, but doesn't it seem strange that the eary top quality S&L 57 stuff made on the original toling is either unmarked or 800, yet in the last few years, the really cruddy die stamping start coming out but in very high grade 925.

I know that 57 stuff is being made in England, and due to English law if it is in silver it must be stamped 925. I know who is doing them. Now, here is the thing I cant get confirmation or otherwise on - the guy had some business connection with S&L. It was rumoured that and may have made them for S&L almost as a sub contractor. If that is the case then they are legit, albeit not made by S&L. There was also a story going round that S&L got into bother for having what are officially sanctioned German awards made abroad, basically because they had no longer any commercial interest in doing them, there was so little demand.

Now this may all be urban myth but I don't think so, and I personally wouldn't have a 925 piece. I recently (couple of years ago - these 925s were around then) bought some pieces direct from S&L and what arrived were all 800 stamped.

They may as I say, be legit pieces made with S&L approval, but I wouldn't have one.

Better to wait and maybe find a nice 57 piece on EBay - hell no what am I saying - dont even go there

Gordon

**Grant Broadhurst** · 08-01-2002, 12:46 AM

Hello Gordon ,

thanks very much for the info , i,ll stick to trying to get a nice 800 stamped piece .

Cheers

Grant

**W. C. Stump** · 08-01-2002, 03:15 PM

THREAD HAS GOT ME THINKING

A very interesting thread indeed and it give me reason to find out what I have. Here are three different 1957 Oak Leaves and Swords, or what I think are 1957 pieces. I would appreciate any comments concerning my items. The one in the center is marked 800 and a tad smaller that the other two, the one on the right is marked 925 while the one on the left has a drunk stamping it as it is smudged so bad I can't make out if 800 or what.

Attached Files

oak leaves and swords three reverse 1957.jpg (34.0 KB, 519 views)

**esquiroz** · 03-04-2003, 03:43 PM

Hallo,
continuing with this thread, do someone know(and that is not the first time I ask it) anyone who sells RK 57 marked 800, and with magnetic core? As someone here says he has seen several pieces marked 800, I thought someone did know that, About the 925 pieces I think an d I have heard that they come also from S&L, the only that has authorisation. Nevertheless they don't make them any more, as they onlly make Ek1 and EK2 and in not a very good quality. You can by them fron Detlev Niemann in the boxes for 160.-euros. Also Sammler-Eck from Wlfried Freitag has them if you have any interest.
Have a nice day.
Carlos

**Prosper Keating** · 03-04-2003, 05:15 PM

There was also a story going round that S&L got into bother for having what are officially sanctioned German awards made abroad, basically because they had no longer any commercial interest in doing them, there was so little demand.

Steinhauer & Lück sold their original wartime tooling, including the infamous cracked frame dies, back in 1981. It was something of a covert deal through an intermediary. As I have said before, I know this for a fact because I saw the dies in London when they were offered to a 'master forger', now dead, whom I knew very well and who hesitated because of the damage and was pipped to the post for them by a top English dealer. So S&L, unless they made new tooling, would of course have been obliged to sub-contract RK production.

Prosper Keating

**Gordon Williamson** · 03-04-2003, 06:11 PM

S&L did make new tooling.
The tooling used to make the 925 framed 1957 RK is not the old wartime tooling, but new postwar made tooling where the eye for the suspension loop dips down noticeably into the frame. These were used by Steinhauer into the early 90s. Their supposed use "on loan" or "lease" for an English firm to make RK on contract is in the last 7-8 years or so.

The fact that 925 marked stuff could be obtained from S&L also suggests that if the story is true, then there was an element of legitimacy to the arrangement with the person operating the dies supplying S&L and knocking off some for himself at the same time.

I know exactly who is involved and it isn't the peron who is said to have got the damaged wartime dies.

**Phil DeWitt** · 03-05-2003, 12:21 AM

Hello "esquiroz"

A source for '57 pieces was mentioned, 'Sammler-Eck'

Please, anyone have the URL?

Thanks,

Phil

**Prosper Keating** · 03-05-2003, 03:55 AM

What Gordon says is very interesting indeed! (How's it going mate?) Last year, a French collector I know quite well bought an RK group from a German. The RK was described as "by Steinhauer & Lück". It was a very convincing cross but the eyelet dipped into the frame as you describe. It wasn't one of the older fakes or more commonly seen fakes. None of us had seen one like it before. The general consensus was that he should return it for a refund, which he did. So there is another UK dealer - obviously a well-connected one if he has been making '57 RKs under contract for the German equivalent of Spink & Son - turning out top end fake RKs. Hardly surprising. The one who acquired the cracked dies is a bit out of the game these days. Hides away in the countryside. Probably has a crick in his neck from looking over his shoulder all the time. Anyway, these fake 1939 pattern RKs made on post-1957 S&L tooling - made after they damaged the wartime frame dies - are in circulation and are doubtless fooling people. What's stopping the faker from being named and shamed?

PK

**Tim Calvert** · 03-06-2003, 05:22 AM

Here's an 800 marked (on the loop) '57.
Its surprisingly nice. no sign of cracked dies.

Attached Files

57 rk cr.jpg (72.6 KB, 336 views)

**esquiroz** · 03-06-2003, 12:40 PM

Hi,
sorry for my inquisitory questions, but :Where, when and for what price have you got it? And, what's more important to me: Do you sell it?

Thank you for your replies.

carlos

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