RK at Ebay

[Brian S]

So, we are all agreeing that this flawed RK is a wartime S&L?

The truth resides only in the heart of he who owns and believes.

[George Stimson]

Ah, so then the "truth" is now relative!

[Dez H]

Anyone who "busts Dave's chops" over buying this RK is obviousely jelious for not snapping it up for themself.


Regards
Dez

[tom hansen]

Thanks for the case photos, Dave!

[tom hansen]

Which war are you talking about, George? Vietnam or the Korean War?

[Brian S]

Anyone who "busts Dave's chops" over buying this RK is obviousely jelious for not snapping it up for themself.


Regards
Dez

No one's busting anyone's chops Dez.

[Sal Williams]

What "level" of flaw is this one considered to be? Is the general consensus that it has an acceptable amount of flaw to be wartime? If so why?
Best, Sal

BTW congrats Dave!

[George Stimson]

It looks to me like it has considerable flawing on the 3 o'clock arm and possibly a lesser amount on the 6 o'clock arm. I'd like to see a close-up of the latter.

[Richard]

I've read this thread with interest and compared all the pictures. Based on the close up photos, I've seen nothing that would convince me that the pictured KC's frames and cores are all struck from one respective die. In the case of the 1939 dated part of the crosses that were pictured, unless there is distortion to very small angle differences of the photos, there were definitely at least 2 and possibly even three dies used.

There has been doubt about the originality/pre 1945 production of these "flawed" KC's for some time. There is always a discussion that ensues when a prominent dealer offers one for sale. Ultimately the customer has to be happy with what he bought, but of great concern to me is I cannot recall that any of the dealers (most, if not all, who are members of this site) has added to an opened thread to try to explain their reasons they believe these are genuine. I've never heard of one with any provenance. They don't have to defend their belief, but it would be encouraging to the acceptance of these widely disputed pieces in the mainstream collector's arena if dealers could provide anything that supports acceptance.

Silgemnumi did a very good job explaining the die making process. This has been in place for longer than these medals have been made. It would be highly unlikely for an award with the prestige of this one to have incurred die flaws or cracks, visible to the naked eye, and not have the manufacturer replace it with another made from the same master die. Stature of the award would virtually eliminate the probability that a manufacturer would allow a visibly broken die to be used and quality to be compromised when it would have been easy enough to produce another or where a spare might have existed. If something like this fell through the inspection process cracks, there would be few that would have made making this a rare and controversial "variety". Keep in mind that quality control on these was based on examining a very few thousand rather than in the millions such as most other badges that were produced.

The "die crack" runs through the recesses of the ridges on the medal but seems to abruptly stop. This is not characteristic of a die crack. A die crack would taper off on both ends. This one appears to be a uniform thickness for its entire length. So this had to be a true die flaw and not a crack. That in itself would indicate these would have to be produced from separate dies or one die that was subsequently damaged. If someone damaged the die, I think this would have been discovered and remedial action to correct the problem would have been taken.

We all know that original dies were used post war for "collectors" runs of medals. This would be a more likely time for a producer to be unconcerned with the quality of one of the Third Reich's most prestigious awards.

Look closely at the first 9 in the provided pictures and compare the space created by the O in the nine and the leg. Certainly doesn't look the same to me. The cores, at least, were produced from separate dies. It would, of course, be simplistic to think that the two parts would have one respective original die that would be used throughout the entire production run. Iron is much harder on dies than silver.

Since a production run of coins (such as the relatively hard copper/nickel coins minted in the US today) can be around 100 thousand before dies are replaced, it is unlikely that a die for a soft silver frame would wear or get damaged from a few thousand strikings. Why aren't there the same proportion of die flaws on the EK2 which was produced in the millions and where quality control would have been more lax?

Brian has mentioned dirt in the die on the pictures of the corner of the frame that show filled in ridges. Keep in mind, this could not be dirt, as dirt in the die would collect in the die's recesses which are the frames ridges and would have made the ridges less prominent. Recesses on the frames ribbing are ridges on the die. So where recesses on the frame appear filled, this means the die was missing metal from the ridges of the die. In other words, this is indicative of a die that has split off part of its metal and now has none where there was once some.

Think about all the badges that were made of lesser significance and of harder materials than silver. How many die flaws are there of these badges? Few. Few enough that would make one think that a KC silver frame would never have encountered this problem in its limited production run even from a single die. On one hand you have badges that were made in the millions and die "flaws" or cracks are rare, on the other hand you have a highly prestigious award produced in limited numbers yet with a large number of die flawed examples? Doesn't make sense.

Any buyer does have to be happy with their purchase. I would not have one of these in my collection and the buyer needs to know his market will be much more limited for resale. It may never be proven that these are post war or pre war, but when in doubt and when a large number of the collecting community has doubt, pass. A deal that is too good to be true, usually is.
Richard V

[Brian S]

Let's just make sure no one thinks it's Brian S who believes in the dirt in the die theory.

[Peter Wiking]

I find a humble RK at Ebay and all valves open

Cheers mates.
Peter

[Bob Treend]

Hi! I passed on "Der Gauleiter" to Leo Watermaier simply because I no longer had the time to publish it. At the time I suggested to him that he make it into an on-line publication because, even a blind man could see that was the future. I recently retired and have created an on line version of it
Finally, I don't have anything to do with someone in Texas who calls themselves "Der Gauleiter" and I certainly don't have anything to do with fake Knight's Crosses or other fakes being sold on the net. Bob

[ekhunter]

Hi! I passed on "Der Gauleiter" to Leo Watermaier simply because I no longer had the time to publish it. At the time I suggested to him that he make it into an on-line publication because, even a blind man could see that was the future. I recently retired and have created an on line version of it: .com
Finally, I don't have anything to do with someone in Texas who calls themselves "Der Gauleiter" and I certainly don't have anything to do with fake Knight's Crosses or other fakes being sold on the net. Bob

'Leo Watermaier' That's a name I haven't heard in a long time. I guess he survived Katrina?

[all1knew]

Hello all,

Another vote to hear what this one was purchased for........

Will Dave tell or too afraid we'll all hate him?

William Kramer