S&L DKiS (wide pin)

[Dietrich Maerz]

It really looks like a modern copy! I was not looking good enough because the topic of S&L as a genuine cross in the sense of Godet, Deschler, Zimmermann, ... was more intriging to me.

So, this is a copy modelled after a post war copy ...

[Leroy]

So, this is a copy modelled after a post war copy ...

No, a copy made after a piece made during the war but unlikely to have been delivered and/or awarded.

[Thomas Durante]

I agree that the cross looks modern...especially the reverse. The hardware is distinctly NOT S&L, and the polished look of the reverse and rivets are also red flags.

As to S&L making crosses during the war...the jury is still out in my opinion based on the solid evidence (but I tend to agree with Dietrich that they are all postwar).

Tom

[Leroy]

As to S&L making crosses during the war...the jury is still out in my opinion based on the solid evidence (but I tend to agree with Dietrich that they are all postwar).

Tom

What kind of "solid evidence" would you want for pieces which were most likely never delivered and/or awarded? The "barter boards" previously shown here, accepted as original, had a DKIG and DKIS, both correctly marked "4" on the pin.

[Thomas Durante]

What kind of "solid evidence" would you want for pieces which were most likely never delivered and/or awarded? The "barter boards" previously shown here, accepted as original, had a DKIG and DKIS, both correctly marked "4" on the pin.

I want 2 things:

1. The Barter Board in question is untouched, and solid provenance on the exact date it was picked up (1946 or 1951?).

2. The date when S&L started new production of swastika-bearing awards that they didn't produce during the war (was it June 1945 or was it 1953?).

Without knowing the definite answer to these two questions, I don't see how we can say for sure that the awards on the barter boards contain wartime produced badges. We can speculate all we want, and it all may be legitimate, but in the end it is still just circumstantial evidence in my opinion. Much like the FLL Luftwaffe badges. I have no doubt that these were produced by FLL based on a ton of circumstantial evidence. But I respect that others will not be satisfied until we find irrefutable proof in the way of an FLL catalog, or something similar.

Tom

[Leroy]

Tom - I fully respect your approach.

Sometime in this hobby, you play the odds. I personally would not buy, as fully wartime completed, an S&L DK without the correct "4" on the pin. On the other hand, I would buy one with that mark.

(I believe it was reported by the original auction house that the boards were acquired by a British officer shortly after the end of the war and there is nothing in the characteristics of the other items on those boards - including the three Knights Crosses on the same board as the DK's - which would lead me to doubt that claim at all.)

[Dietrich Maerz]

No, a copy made after a piece made during the war but unlikely to have been delivered and/or awarded.

I was referring to the missing "4". I tend to agree that, based on the comment Mr. Preuss made in 1977 (where there was no need whatsoever to say something good about this type of DK since there was no controversy) , the "4"-marked DKs are at least war-time made, but most likely not distributed.

The number system of the PKZ is a very important matter since it helps to understand certain things and procedures. It is also very important to realize when it was introduced and how it was used.
(This even makes me more sad when the "latest and greatest" publication in Germany distributes such nonsens that the PKZ-number was introduced in mid 1941. Without any documentation whatsoever, just for the fun of it. And since it is printed in b/w it will be taken as gospel by the poor people who rely on such bad researched books! That is completely unnecessary in 2012!)

Dietrich

[Andreas Klein]

.... , the "4"-marked DKs are at least war-time made, but most likely not distributed.

Hi,

they were distributed. My one which is shown in your book was awarded in February 1945 due to the source i got it from and in the german MFF there was shown a one which was awarded November 1944 (for me the earliest 4 marked one which could be tracked back by to an award date).

[Dietrich Maerz]

Andreas,

with all due respect and in no way doubting what you have been told, but for me (and only for me) this is not enough. There has to be a lot more pieces of the puzzle before I personally (and only I) do believe that German Crosses made by S&L have been awarded at the very end of the war.

Anybody who knows the award procedure of any German Cross knows that the awarad was approved by the HPA/PA/P5e 1.Staffel and that after the approval process the award was send out to the awarding unit. That logically implies that the crosses were stored at the central place of the PKZ from where they were transported to the south of Germany at the end of the war and ended up in Schloss Klessheim. This is documented and not an invention by somebody.

As of today no S&L-made German Cross has been found in connection with any believeable Klessheim find. That does not mean that this will not happen in the future. I am also aware that we do not have nor will we ever have an inventory of what was down there in the last days of the war. However, all the other border line pieces, such as the 800-4 and 935-4 have been found in connection with Klessheim. That speaks for the consistency of the story and the related procedures.

And it does not mean (at least not for me) that because we have no inventory and because we have no believable find (yet?), we can just say: "Well, it could be and therefore it is so!"

I seriously doubt that you would certify something otherwise doubtful in your Wound Badge book just based on the word of one veteran or collector. I certainly don't do it and at this point in time I personally will just wait for more evidence. If we would believe every "story", the collecting area of the Third Reich would be far, far richer in examples ....

All I could advise is this: why buy an S&L German Cross when you can buy examples which can be proved 100%?

Dietrich

[Leroy]

I remember that you had told me about yours, Andreas, but it is better to come directly from you.

[Andreas Klein]

Hi Dietrich,

i have no problems with your thoughts - it's ok for me.

Anyway Klessheim is not the holy grail to judge about a badge because we can't know for sure if really every item made his way to Klessheim latewar and it's no secret that the documents of the PKZ are not complete.

Some S&L crosses were found in the past and could be tracked back to the german soldier without any finacial interest of the soldier. But it was and is always the same: we only accept and believe what fits the opion of certain people.

So it was sure that all those soldiers were liars and idiots and gave their information out only to fool collectors.

But there is no need to discuss about it. I know what i have and why i trust the informations i have about it .... it's not only the story, it's the piece itself.

[Dietrich Maerz]

Andreas,

why do you always try to use the "He is calling German veterans a liar"-argument? I find this extremely offensiv and not a very good argument for your case!

First of all, I never used that word or any other and second of all I have ample evidence of German soldiers not telling the truth about their orders and medals. I suggest that you study Fellgiebel and his Knights Cross awards in more detail. You need to get a subscription to Scherzer's "Ritterkreuz Archiv" to learn even more.

Who decides what is true and what not? You? I can give you 20 names of collectors who swore to me that they got their Rounder from a veteran who was awarded with that very cross on that very date! And I know for sure that you have been told some stories regarding your Wound Badge research where you know it could not be true! I just hope that you looked at all the evidence and that you do not believe everything what you have been told. Otherwise we will have another Grimm's Märchen ...

I also find it absolutely astonishing that every time it is convenient the sentence "Believe the piece and not the story" is quoted, but when the only real solid evidence is the story, collectors who don't accept it as an unshakeable dogma are accused of calling the German soldiers "liars and idiots"! You can't have it both ways!

You will also remember that you told me at the time when I wrote the GC book, that the group in which the cross was found was already torn apart and no longer in an untouched condition. And exactly that, in the spirit of full disclosure, was printed. Together with the reported award date of February 1945. And that is all that is known or better all you told me in 2009.

I do not know more today than I knew then. Do you?

Dietrich

[Leroy]

We already believe that towards the end of the war, stocks of Knights Crosses were held by various Commands for award. At what point were stocks of DK's, EKI's, etc., made available to such Commands?

[Andreas Klein]

AW: S&L DKiS (wide pin)

Hi Dietrich.... the same to you. Always the same evidences: klessheim, the pkz, the possible thoughts of doehle. Did Mr. Preuss told you how many crosses were ordered? If yes.... was it such a big amount that there is a chance for a stock in klessheim?

If not than klessheim is worthless because we can't exclude that the whole S&L stuff was already awarded and only the rest of the stuff made it to klessheim.

A point to think about....

I said in my post the same as I said in 2009: I could only by the German cross out of a Luftwaffe grouping which was splitted up to several byers and where told that it was awarded February 1945. Knowing the seller as honorable German collector of Luftwaffe stuff I had no problems to trust him and the cross was like I awaited from a late war production.

[Dietrich Maerz]

We already believe that towards the end of the war, stocks of Knights Crosses were held by various Commands for award. At what point were stocks of DK's, EKI's, etc., made available to such Commands?

I know that there always have been stocks of EK1 and lower at each division. That procedure is explained in depth in the literature.

I do not know about any significant stocks outside of the PKZ resp. PA/P5 before the 30. April 1945. I know that as per that datel the Knights Cross still came out of the PKZ resp. PA/P5. It could be that the Army Groups had some Knights Crosses or German Crosses but how many were legally awarded in the last 8 days (and can therefore be found in a legitimate group) and how many might be lost?

For sure there were no German Crosses or Knights Crosses in the posession of the Army Groups in February 1945, the date the GC by S&L was allegedly awarded.

Always the same evidences: klessheim, the pkz, the possible thoughts of doehle. Did Mr. Preuss told you how many crosses were ordered?

I rather go with the PKZ documents, Dr. Doehle's procedures and the unshakeable evidence of Klessheim than with the word of ONE collector. I always thought from our previous discussions that you are a hard believer in hard documentation. That is why you guys are digging in the Bundesarchiven, you went to Gablonz to come up with splendid war time documentation, you question pin and catch badge attribution based on the fact that you found contemporary evidence of sub-suppliers and die makers for the bigger companies and now - all over sudden - the PKZ files, Dr. Doehle, Mr. Preuss, and the documented evidence of Klessheim (you should relaly read Scherzer and Absolon) is worth nothing anymore compared to the word of one German collector (which was not even the "awardee" himself)?

I can't follow that reasoning! And Dr. Preuss did not tell me anything at all. I was quoting from a letter he wrote in 1977. I doubt that the number of crosses was minor, I also doubt that he delivered all of them so they could all be awarded before the end of the war (and none show up so far with any recipient but one - yours!) and I also doubt he only made that one.

What I do believe, just as Leroy, is that S&L made "4"-marked German Crosses because they got an order and they never could deliver them to the PKZ. And your cross is one of them. And that is based on what we know from all believable sources as of today. Tomorrow might bring more and you might be right. Remember, I am not saying you are wrong. I am only saying that I need more to believe something that is so far not supported by other evidence. I printed your story in my book for everybody to know and base their opinion on. I am not suppressing nor fudging any evidence!

Dietrich